Worst thing ever said about LOTR

Discussion in 'J.R.R. Tolkien / Lord of the Rings' started by Galadriel71, May 24, 2005.

  1. allioness

    allioness New Member

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    Wow. Someone's got a different opinion to you and you blow up.

    Harry potter isn't for little kids. The LOTR films are much better than Harry Potter - but the Harry Potter books are much better than LOTR.

    I haven't heard anything bad because I'm not that fanatic about it. People are allowed to have their own opinions about something.
     
  2. Bard

    Bard Erchamion

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    I don't know about the HP books being better than LOTR, and about them not being for little kids either...
     
  3. Anduril

    Anduril Flame of the West

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    I am sorry; but The Lord of the Rings is much better than Harry Potter. As for it being for little kids, I think the reading level is for little kids. But some of the subject matter is most certainly not which is why I think parents need to be careful about what they let their kids read.
     
  4. Galadriel71

    Galadriel71 New Member

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    Sorry people, i should have said that in "Different Terms", I meant to say that Harry Potter was meant to capture the minds of MOSTLY younger audiences, and I didn't blow up I thought his comment was rather nice. But in MY opinion, and in only mine, the LOTR books and movies were a great deal better than HP.
     
  5. Galadriel71

    Galadriel71 New Member

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    That's right Anduril, you pwn3d them.
     
  6. allioness

    allioness New Member

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    In your opinion :) and in mine the Harry Potter books are much better.

    :) Thanks for re-wording it. The LOTR books don't capture my imagination that much really - my mind doesn't actually see it happening whereas it does with Harry Potter.
     
  7. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Worst things said, mmm..."It's sexist and racist!"
     
  8. Richard Rahl

    Richard Rahl New Member

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    And that, like everything else in this thread, is a matter of opinion.
     
  9. anna236

    anna236 Modern day Anna

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    To all of the people that are bashing LOTR: Read the books.
    Second: You have to realize, before you read them, that they were written when no one had ever really heard of fantasy. It truely is ingenuous once you realize that this was written in the 1950's and 60's.
    TOLKEIN RULES!!!!!
     
  10. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Actually fantasy existed long before Tolkien, true it wasn't as popular. Second if you love his work so much try to spell his name right! lol

    No...it's more a matter of rumours, speculations and facts. I haven't claimed anything yet. I've just speculated about the facts I know and heard.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2006
  11. anna236

    anna236 Modern day Anna

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    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2006
  12. anna236

    anna236 Modern day Anna

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    OOPS (hides her face in shame).
     
  13. Richard Rahl

    Richard Rahl New Member

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    Claiming something is racist, or sexist, is pretty much always going to be a matter of opinion, as what constitutes racism or sexism differs from person to person. That is certainly the case if Tolkien is your example.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2006
  14. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    well going to a club which excludes women and non-white people often defines a person I would think...
     
  15. Richard Rahl

    Richard Rahl New Member

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    Now perhaps, but I think it actually defines the age in which Tolkien lived more clearly. Only now is it considered sexist or racist, since people are no longer persecuted because of race or gender, and most rational people are not as narrow-minded as they once were. Most being the key word there...But I guess you've simply refused to acknowledge the importance of this.

    And besides, being a member of that club does not make the Lord of the Rings racist or sexist, which is what this thread is about.
     
  16. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I never said Lord of the Rings is sexist or rascist. But I do speculate about it based on what I've heard and look to certain aspects in the book to compare it with sexism and racism...I'm not gonna talk about it. I already had a major debate about this.

    But I have heard others "claiming" it is sexist and racist...and this is the thread about the worst things said about Lord of the Rings...but it doesn't mean that what has been said came out of my mouth.
     
  17. Richard Rahl

    Richard Rahl New Member

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    That's fine then, but here is my take on that particular accusation.

    It's all to do with time. Think about the time Tolkien lived in. Think about what sort of time the story of the Lord of the Rings is set in.
    Tolkien was born in 1892. Over 100 years ago. The world was a completely different place then. If there were blacks in England at that point, they'd come over as slaves, and were still frowned upon because of the colour of their skin. Yes, that is racist. But back then it was normal. It's a classic case of shunning something you don't understand. People were not used to men and women with brown skin, so they were treated an inferiors. It's not right, by todays standards, but back then it was acceptable. While mis-guided, it is at least understandable.
    Women. Again, in Tolkien's day, things were different. Women stayed at home. Looked after the children, did the cooking and cleaning, whilst the men were out earning the money. Up until recently, when considering the span of history of continents like Europe, that is how it's always been. That doesn't make it sexist, it just makes it life. Only now is it considered sexist because women are now out in the world working just as men are.
    That is pretty generalised of course, but I would think it's easy to see where I'm coming from here.

    Now, the Lord of the Rings. This has always been considered to be set in a fictional equivalent of England/Europe, many centuries in the past...There wouldn't have been any black people. Maybe Tolkien was racist by todays standards, and so included no black people, but I doubt it. 'Coloured' people were not as big a part of Tolkien's world as they are yours or mine, because the world was simply not as diversified as it is now. But I'm not so sure that's the problem.
    Is it racist because evil is construed as black? People are afraid of the dark. Does that make them racist? Things which can not be seen, that are hidden in shadow, make people afraid. Does that make them racist? Of course it doesn't, and just look at how absurd it looks when written down.
    Tolkien may have not liked black people (which there is no evidence to suggest, other than him being a member of an all-white group), but I find it impossible to believe that Mordor and the 'evil' in the Lord of the Rings is thought of as black because Tolkien hated people of African descent (who are actually brown).
    I think it's quite simple. Black, dark, shadow, that which can not be seen, frightens people, and is perfect to use as evil, as that is something someone should be frightened of.

    And women in the story is pretty much the same as in Tolkien's own world. They were housewives. They weren't soldiers or warriors, and so had little part in a story about war.

    I think in a time where people like to over-analyse what past peoples' intentions were, my interpretation of things is as likely as anything else. Tolkien, and his world, was set in a different time. Racist and Sexist by todays standards maybe, but not by his days standards. If the issue as it is today, or even the intent, was not there, how can the accusation be valid?

    I don't know. Just something for people to thing over.
     
  18. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I agree on that point of your comparrison with black...Darth Vader wears a black armour because it represents darkness...so all what is called black in lord of the rings is the same. But what I heard is that the orcs and such actually represent black people...that is the major reason it was called racist and they always talk of "men of the west" representing mostly actually England and America. Those are the good guys. So they speculate that is what Tolkien meant...England, America good...rest bad...
     
  19. Richard Rahl

    Richard Rahl New Member

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    Hmmm, that's interesting. I think people just like to speculate like you say, and that's really all it is. There's no evidence to suggest that orcs represented black people. They didn't even all have black or brown skin. An easier way would have been for Aragorn and co not to have been fighting orcs, but brown-skinned men. That would have been blatantly racist, but anything else is just people mongering for some controversy I think.

    "Men of the West". It's funny, I'd never even thought about that. It's amazing the lengths at which some people will go to try and find some kind of connection between a piece of fiction, and the real world.
    Of course, Tolkien could have been referring to England and America when he wrote that, but it seems a little far-fetched to me. Aragorn was a ranger from the North after all, but nothing is said about that. Probably because there's no malice to be found, just like there isn't anywhere else.

    I don't know. I guess we'll never know for certain, but it seems to just be conjecture, based on nothing but attempts to purposefully embellish certain phrases or events and induce altercations such as this could've been.
     
  20. Fireball

    Fireball Bad Baby on Campus

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    Worst i ever said? nothing. i'm not in to that stuff so i dont talk about it.