Wormtongue: misunderstood?

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Grima Wormtongue, Oct 20, 2004.

?

Grima Wormtongue

  1. Horribly bad and evil

    27 vote(s)
    62.8%
  2. misunderstood

    16 vote(s)
    37.2%
  1. Grima Wormtongue

    Grima Wormtongue Man in black

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    Is Grima Wormtongue Misunderstood?


    To me, he is, simply put, he wanted love, and he had to turn to the dark side for help. Aswell, if you look at it this way, He helped Gandalf by throwin down the palantir :monkeyass
     
  2. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    I believe he threw the palantir at Gandalf. There's a big difference.
     
  3. Grima Wormtongue

    Grima Wormtongue Man in black

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    Correct me if im wrong,but all the others take it as a threat, and ask ganda;f to kill him, but gandalf says somthing like he meant no harm. therefor, grima was either trying to drop it on sarumon, because he was one floor below, or he noticed aragorn, and he knew that he needed it, wanting to help them aginst sauron (because hes really a good guy) ;)
    -wormtongue
     
  4. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Love... yeah, right. Love for what? For Theoden, I'm quite sure he could have gotten more love from the royal family of Rohan then from Saruman. If anything, Saruman talked him into it. And he isn't that loyal to Saruman either. In the UT there is a story about him telling all he knows to the Nazgul that intercept him while fleeing back to Orthanc... He's just downright evil!
     
  5. Grima Wormtongue

    Grima Wormtongue Man in black

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    Love for Eowyn! He could not get her, so he thought power could convince her to love him.

    In the Unfinished tales, The witchking came to ortanc and took grima and tortured him to get answers about the ring. Grima didnt tell the nazgul freely, he was tortured.
    -wormtongue
     
  6. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I wouldn't call it torture, I'd call it chicken... The presence of the Nazgul was enough to crap his pants and tell all they wanted to know. They let him live because

    "...he deemed that so great terror was upon him that he would never dare to speak of their encounter (as proven true), and he saw that the creature was evil and was likely to do great harm to Saruman, if he lived."

    UT, Hunt for the Ring.

    Oh, I have to correct myself. Grima was on his way to Saruman to warn him of Gandalfs arrival in Edoras (when he "borrowed" Shadowfax).
     
  7. Grima Wormtongue

    Grima Wormtongue Man in black

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    So the nazgul calls the creature (grima) evil... 3 ways of what evil could mean from the point of the nazgul...

    1: If somone you think is evil, and says your evil, does it mean that you are both on the same side. No, the nazgul could of been saying that hes an evil enemy against the darklords side (so that would put grima on the 'good' side).

    2: The nazgul could of meant that grimas evil because hes going to do somthing against sarumon, whom is a great ally, so that makes grima evil.

    3: The nazgul recognised that grima was pure evil, and a member of saurons evil forces, and should have bowed down to grima and thanked him for his services.
     
  8. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I think the power of the Nazgul is underestimated. They are chief evil, only after Sauron. And they have great senses. I think they preceived that Grima was rotten to the core. That could mean a couple of things, such as that they are on the same side, since Saurons forces are the greatest evils of ME in that period. That could also mean that he belongs to Sarumans evil forces (which he did). But from the general notion of the Nazgul, with their great senses for such, I can't come to the conclusion he is "misunderstood".
     
  9. Grima Wormtongue

    Grima Wormtongue Man in black

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    ofcourse they have great sences, the nazgul can sniff out whos evil to the core, like grima as you say, and they can also sniff out women dressed as men *cough* eowyn *cough*, err bad example.

    He did belong to sarumons evil forces, or more like, he was controled by sarumon to do what sarumon wanted.
    -wormtongue
     
  10. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    Actually the Nazgul did not sniff out Eowyn dressed as a man, he sais something along the lines of "Fool no man can kill me", and she said something along the lines of "No man am I you behold Eowyn"

    And Grima was trying to throw the Palantir and Saruman, it bounced off the railing and whizzed past Gandalf.

    Grima did not "love" Eowyn at all, he was lusting after her and seeking her because she was the key to to the throne, if Theoden, Theodred, and Eomer were dead, she would take the throne and whoever she married would be king.

    Grima's "good side" was lost long time ago.....even farther gone that Gollum's good side?
     
  11. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Actually, I think Gollum makes/deserves more chance to repatriation. He was neither evil nor good, he had his own plans. And could help little the state he was in during LoTR. Maybe he made a mistake as being smeagol, a thousand years before, but now he is just the way he is, neither good nor evil, and probably both.
     
  12. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    Ha ! As if you wouldn't crap your pants when confronted by the Nazgul ! I wouldn't call it chicken, no one is unafraid of the Nine.

    Isn't Gollum a few hundred years old ? Grima would only be around 40 or so during the War Of The Ring. So i'd say Gollum's "good side" was lost even longer ago than Grima's.
     
  13. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I can remember some hobbits sending a Nazgul away while being questioned in stead of crapping their pants... And besides, I'm not scared so easily.
     
  14. Grima Wormtongue

    Grima Wormtongue Man in black

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    My point exactly!

    Ofcourse. Its is never said in the books that he aimed it at sarumon, only an assumtion from aragorn and gandalf. If he did, how would that make grima bad? Sarumon picked on grima. If you were picked on, wouldnt you want to get back, it wouldnt make you evil

    In the books, there is no part were Grima actualy 'hits' on eowyn, it is told by Eomer about grimas 'lust' for eowyn to aragorn. Eomer hated grima, do you think hed make grima look a little worse?

    Grima wasnt bad, he just made bad choices. We can say Sauron was evil, because he was, but grima is far more complex. Grima had a father, grima cared for Theoden, even befor he was told to by sarumon.
    -wormtongue
     
  15. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    You dudes take stuff way too deeply. If Eomer told Gandalf and Aragorn about Grima then thats what Tolkien was saying ok. Eomer's opinion= tolkien's opinion. Sometimes you people forget it was a book written by one man, and you let yourself believe that all of the characters are indiiduals that didn't spawn from one man's thoughts and are his creation. Its not a history, its fiction.

    And as for Grima's good side being farther lost than gollum's, age has nothing to do with. Grima's mind was being controlled by Sarumon who was in turn being controlled by Sauron. Gollum's mind wasn't controlled by an individual. Mostly by the Ring, but it was not being controlled my anyone at the time. And don't try and tell me that the Ring was being controlled my Sauron because it wasn't. If it had been then Sauron would have told the ring to tell Gollum not to try and take it because then he would lose the possiblity of getting it when Frodo came to Mordor.

    Now look whos taking it to deeply...lol.
     
  16. Galadriel

    Galadriel True Heir

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    Horrible creature that should be dumped in hell. I think that he is mean and that he get's what he wants is even worst. I don't think he survived Sauron's fall.
     
  17. Firiath

    Firiath Halfling barbarian

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    I think he's misunderstood. Like (the TFF-member) Gríma said was love the only thing he wanted or he needed. He turned to the dark side because he was in despair. Nobody really loved him, he didn't know what to do so he joined Saruman. That's what I think, even if it wasn't true.
     
  18. Grima Wormtongue

    Grima Wormtongue Man in black

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    if anyones truly intrested in wormtongue, check out www.grimawormtongue.com for others who think he misunderstood.
    -wormtongue
     
  19. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    misunderstood and evil, I would say. the fact that they misunderstood him made him evil.
     
  20. Lego

    Lego God amongst men

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    Grima was a good man, but he was weak minded and saruman lied, abused and manipulated him, promissed him power and Grima took it literally.