Wikileaks and the Afghan front

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by azuren82, Jul 28, 2010.

  1. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    Oh yes and global warming is the biggest hoax to come down the pike since the snake oil salesmen of the 1890's.
     
  2. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    How is Assange a spy? He didn't obtain the material himself, there's no suggestion that any government is paying him (which is fundamental to the definition of a "spy") and the cables actually suggest the US have a large number of intelligent and capable diplomats - it's other governments that have come out of this looking badly. Look, I know that a large number of people, particularly in the US, are desperately trying to hang any kind of crime on Assange, but that's not how the justice system works. He actually has to be guilty of something to be convicted, and he's innocent until proven guilty. As for your suggestion that it would be acceptable to have him quietly murdered, that's disgusting.

    As for the idea that the "left-leaning media" supports things that aren't necessarily good for the US, I'm fine with that, being a citizen of the Non-American World™. What precisely is wrong about having a global perspective on these matters? I share your concern about innocent people being potentially put at risk by WikiLeaks, but I also think that other innocent people who have been killed in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan deserve justice. To be honest, I'm not sure that all the information WikiLeaks have published should have been made public, but I think we are definitely entitled to know certain things - the video of the Apache helicopter that killed 12 Iraqis, including a Reuters journalist, is one of those. I'm not saying accidents can't happen in a war, but the video makes it clear that that wasn't an accident - it was incredible carelessness, even callousness, by a couple of gung-ho pilots drunk on power. The US shouldn't have tried to cover that up or protect the pilots involved. Sure, it was bad for the image of the US that the video was published but they created the situation in the first place. An independent media has no obligation to protect the US's (or anyone else's) dirty little secrets for them. Plus, the families of those that were killed deserve to know the truth - or is it only innocent Americans who deserve justice?

    No, it is not. It is a scientific theory with a large amount of supporting evidence. If you're going to make claims contrary to the overwhelming academic consensus on the subject please supply sources. There's an intriguing study here on how the tendency to "balance" coverage of climate change in the media has resulted in a large number of people not realising that there's almost 100% agreement among climatologists about the reality of climate change. I know Sarah Palin thinks global warming is "snake-oil science" but people who actually study the subject are rather more reliable sources.
     
  3. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    This guy is one of the big supporters of the global warming hoax. Feb 15 UK Guardian article professor Phil Jones of the Hadley Research Unit University of East Anglia admitted today that there has been no warming since 1995. He also admitted that it was probably warmer in Medieval times. Professor Jones is facing charges under the freedom of information act for withholding research that contradicted his theories.

    Between 1000 and 1300 the temperatures dropped in what many researchers refer to as a mini ice age. Temps have not returned to those levels yet.

    Also most proposed "fixes" involve government regulations and restrictions on people. ANY program that gives power to government at the expense the people is questionable at best.
     
  4. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    You're talking about one guy, who has only become widely known within the last year. Yes, he's an idiot for lying but his idiocy doesn't invalidate the body of scholarship built up on the subject by thousands of scientists over the last few decades. And again - sources. I'd love to know exactly where you get your information on the subject from. I've cited academic studies; you haven't given one source yet.

    There have been natural fluctuations in climate before now, that's true. However, studies on climate change do take that into account and Question 4 of this FAQ deals with the human contribution to climate change.

    That has no bearing on the science. Also, care to explain how such a massive conspiracy as this would work without anyone leaking it?
     
  5. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    There are reports discrediting the global warming theory but in this country at least the media which is Highly liberal either ignores or buries them as they don't fit their template. Many of the researchers are government funded so peddle the government line.
     
  6. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    Two researchers went over news articles showing that over the last 200 years about every 25 years there were stories claiming that a warming or cooling trend was coming. In the 70's all the talk was of an ice age being brought on by mans activities. I remember the hysteria at the time. And now it is warming. Hmmmm.
    Also much of the "evidence" is based on 1998 being the warmest year on record so far and warmer years later meant trouble. 1935 in the "Dust bowl era" has since been shown to have warmer temps. This was also buried in our papers
     
  7. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    And again, this means nothing unless you cite these sources so their reliability can be assessed. I mean, I've read accounts of people who claim to be abducted by aliens too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2010
  8. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    Good point. The article about the 25 year "crisis" bit was published a couple of years ago but I can't remember in what journal. I heard about it during a debate on global warming and they did list the source but I have forgotten. But as I said I remember the "Ice Age" hysteria in the 70's. There were regular reports in the papers at the time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2010
  9. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    I just lost a looooooooooong post full of citations and am now in a hurry but basically - "global cooling" was far more of a media phenomenon than a scientific one - I did searches of the sciencedirect and Scopus databases of scientific journals (both accessed through my university account so I'm not sure if you can access them). I didn't find one academic article dealing with "global cooling" on Science direct (search parameters were from 1965 to 1980). I found a couple of articles dealing with in on Scopus, but it was far from the only perspective - I also found an article from 1976 entitled "Global cooling? No, Southern Hemisphere warming trends may indicate the onset of the CO2 'greenhouse' effect". This is from "Science" magazine, Volume 193, Issue 4252, 1976, Pages 447-453.

    I also found an article from 2008 from the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society called "The myth of the 1970s global cooling scientific consensus" which is from Volume 89, Issue 9, September 2008, Pages 1325-1337. Here is the abstract from that article:
    Or, basically, the media hyped it up. The hype was not matched by actual scientific studies. i've already linked an article on the flaws of the media on reporting climate change (or, indeed, on reporting any scientific subject :rolleyes:). The same principles apply to "global cooling", it seems.
     
  10. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    I'll be blunt. In my opinion combined with 50+ years experience Anything in media especially the predominantly left wing American media is suspect at best and lies at worst. I still maintain that any changes are natural as there have been changes through out the 4.5 billion years that there has been life on Earth. Many far more extreme than any we have seen lately. 50 million years ago there was a species of whale that died out because for the first time in millions of years "ice caps" were forming at the polls, affecting its food sources.
    From "Walking with Prehistoric Beasts". A documentary by BBC.
     
  11. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    Natural changes in climate are, and always have been, taken into account when attempting to determine the causes of climate change. This part of the IPCC report tackles that exact question.

    None of the evidence I've produced has been media-based evidence by the way. It's all been academic. I've argued this subject a couple of times and no one disagreeing with me has ever come up with a reliable academic source supporting their side - they've usually relied on media accounts. Actually, contrary to your suggestion that the American media are more likely to support human-caused climate change, they are in reality far more likely to exaggerate the amount of debate that exists on the subject. By now there's very little debate, because there are almost no climate specialists who do not believe that climate change is at least partially caused by humans. In fact, 97.4% of climate scientists believe that climate change is manmade.

    From the article I cited already.
    The media phenomenon is not climate climate, it's denial of climate change. The scientific evidence is so substantial that almost 100% of the people who actually study the subject believe climate change is at least partially caused by humans - that's not what the media suggests.
     
  12. Lego

    Lego God amongst men

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    I don't think the man has done nothing more than just expose the corruption going on in the U.S and now he is being silenced.
     
  13. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    'It seems to demand that journalists present competing points of views on a scientific question as though they had equal scientific weight, when actually they do not’

    I read this and I had to snicker. I posted an entire thread on Global Warming here, and how the IPCC is the LAST place we should go for any information because of the non peer reviewed studies, incorrect information (stating the Himalayas have 500,000 square miles of glaciers when there is only about 30,000) and even absolutely falsified studies done by GW advocacy groups, not scientists. The IPCC report was a joke of a farce, and it won a Nobel Prize.

    Here's an old article... by old I mean 10 years.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/snowfalls-are-now-just-a-thing-of-the-past-724017.html

    Quote: "Children just aren't going to know what snow is," - Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia


    Yes, the same East Anglia research unit that had all those leaked emails showing they were falsifying data and hiding data contrary to Global Warming.

    Now, this years headlines.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitalweathergang/2010/12/unusual_weather_pattern_brings.html

    Ah, a "Freak pattern" they call it. Brush it aside. Record cold means nothing, it's just a side effect of warming.

    Doesn't anyone see they've created a scenario now that can't be dis-proven? It is JUST like a religion. Someone steeped heavily into their religion can't be convinced they're wrong no matter what. If it's warm, it's Global Warming. If it's cold, Climate Change. Droughts, Global Warming. Hurricanes, Global Warming. Record snowfalls, Climate Change. Increased ice in Antartica (the artic is growing in the vast majority of the continent... most scientists forget to mention that), well, that's Climate Change.

    They have an out for anything. That's what happens when science has formed a conclusion and seeks to reinforce it by looking for evidence later.

    Climate science is far too complex for us to measure now with all the factors that effect the atmosphere. One such incident where climate scientists were absolutely wrong, and never had to admit it to the public, was Mt. Kilimanjaro in Tanzania, the tallest mountain in Africa.

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0923_030923_kilimanjaroglaciers.html

    Basically, as recently as 2003, and with pretty much all the technology we have today, they couldn't figure out something as simple as the glaciers melting on Kilimanjaro and just assigned it to Global Warming and threw in a few statistics to back it up. They didn't even properly investigate why the glaciers were melting. Well...

    Basically, all they had to do was a basic humidity test, and they didn't even do that.

    The only real proof I need that we aren't in some horrendous change in our planets cycle is to look at the news when they post a temperature. Back in September in California we had one extreme hot day, hottest day on record. That got a lot of news. However, the Southland failed to hit a 100 degree temperature at ANY time during the summer, which was an anomaly as well. One day gets the headlines. An entire season gets nothing.

    Whenever we hear "Hottest day since 1894", some people panic. Others, like me think "So, even without carbon emissions, a temperature this high was normal in 1894?"

    I really feel so much of this Global Warming agenda is just playing to peoples natural feelings of just overall being depressed about humankind. Pollution is often inserted into the Global Warming debate, though it has nothing to do with it. Pollution scares people. Garbage washing ashore, black smoke clogging the air, it has measurable effects. Global Warming though? Still not convinced it's measurable, and becoming increasingly convinced it's being manipulated to force societal change. Many Global Warming gurus admit as much, but in kinder, softer, more gentle ways.

    What does any of this have to do with Wikileaks? Nothing, other than pretty much every other nation on earth other than the US and a few select European countries have said "screw you" to adopting Climate Change mandates and that Obama has had to try to blackmail other nations to go along.
     
  14. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    i've already thorougly derailed this thread, but decided to post my reply to Justice in the thread on climate change.
    Since this is actually relevant to WikiLeaks I've posting it here. I must've missed the climate change blackmail - can you explain it?
     
  15. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    Frankly I distrust "academia" as much if not more than media. In this country at least academia is as left wing if not more so than the media. Academia has been found to use selected data to push their agenda as often as any politician or news man. And the funding for their research comes from the politicians so they give them the results they want.
     
  16. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    Also many climate model projections into the past 50 to 100 to 200 years came up with data that was way off of recorded fact.
     
  17. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    but if we can't trust the only people who have the equipment to gather information about the weather, then who are we to turn to for accurate data??
     
  18. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Recently, 8000 pages worth of cables from the US embasy in The Netherlands to Washington have been released to a body of the Dutch press. It has been suggested that this is all material.

    It's still under research, but so far it's mostly an interesting read. It really is. For once it shows the intricacy of diplomacy and politics. Politicians show their own face at the Embasy, which gets duefully written down. The US shows their tactics (which are not as hard-assed as I always assumed). And some important dossiers from the past have been shed light on in very significant and interesting ways. Beyond that, it's always interesting to look at local democracy from an outside perspective - and this perspective is pretty much right on the money; so far only one prediction that I've read has been proven false.

    For now, I think it's most use to historians. And then politicians, bickering over what has and hasn't been said. Either way, no person was hurt in the making of these cables.
     
  19. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    did any of them contain any important info, or was it mostly embarrassment again?