Wikileaks and the Afghan front

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by azuren82, Jul 28, 2010.

  1. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    however it ends, even if the US tries I doubt they will be able to take back any of the documents. As they say, once something is posted online, it's there permanently.
     
  2. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    You can't put anything back in the box, that's true.

    However you can (try to) prevent to have more out; and you can punish those responsible, possibly to deter copy-cats :)
     
  3. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    Well, this is a stunning display of hypocrisy:

    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2010/12/152465.htm
     
  4. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    ...

    It may be a coincidence, of course. However, it seems that they went all out on Assange's arse.

    +1 for stupendously obvious spindoctrin
     
  5. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    In my humble, American opinion, I think that Assange should be safe from "treason" and all other charges he could have held against him from the US for whatever reason. It's called FREEDOM OF SPEECH people. Now, the actual whistle blower who gave Assange the documents, he COULD be considered a spy under the Espionage Act. I don't think I'd have too much of a problem with him being put away, just because it's kind of stupid on his part for giving anyone those documents and not expecting throwback.

    Also, I think that it's been obvious for ages now that the American government is a liar and a thief *like Gollum*. I think it serves us right and we needed to be outted. I also think people like Sarah Palin are stupid for calling Assange a terrorist and wanting him executed. And sure, he's being unAmerican... because he's not American.

    And on another note, the way that this issue is handled is really going to set boundaries for net neutrality and how/if the government is going to control what goes on on the internet.
     
  6. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    I have been on the fence as to what to call Assange.

    Personally, I enjoy seeing the US government in turmoil. I actually want to see people put to the test, and see how they respond to an emergency. The US's response to Assange's revealing of sensitive documents is actually very unsettling... the US is at a total loss of what to do.

    The Wikileaks have cast dark shadows on the inner workings of not just the Bush administration, but the Obama administration. As many have pointed out, the mainstream media all but supported Assange until he released negative documents about Obama, then turned to the "he's damaging nation security" dodge.

    Now, what Assange is doing is not protected by Freedom of Speech. Once the documents have been revealed, what the MEDIA does is protected speech as it already public knowledge, but publishing stolen classified documents is not protected speech.

    So far, we've learned some interesting things. The intelligence to the Iraq War was much shakier than anyone dares to admit. Bush put his faith in some severely incompetent people. Afghanistan is a complete screw up. Pakistan, our "ally" is funding Al Qaeda, our enemy. US diplomats basically call everyone, from Harmid Karzai, Kim Jong Il, Momar Kadafi, Silvio Berlusconi, and the like a bunch of moronic, psychopathic useless beings in way over their heads.

    It's not that flattering to Obama either. Recently some Wikileaks files suggest the US knows much of the current movement about Global Warming is trumped up, and is actively trying to blackmail other nations to go along with the program during the Copenhagen accord. Luckily, as if by an act of God, the worst snowstorm in nearly a century struck Copenhagen during the talks, and no agreements were made.

    So, I'm on the fence. Recently more files were released about areas that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called, "vital to national security". Maybe that wasn't such a good idea. Actually, giving up intel data like that makes for a very unnatural death in a seedy hotel.
     
  7. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    well from the stuff i've seen or heard of so far there wasn't much to damage "national security". sure, a couple people are gonna get fired now, or get their reputations *justifiably* tarnished, but nothing to bring down the nation.

    or maybe i'm just not looking hard enough.
     
  8. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    There was evidence of significantly higher civilian casualties than previously announced, proof that much of the Afghan war footage was faked to make the war seem like it was going well, evidence that American Corporations were facilitating the selling of young boy prostitutes to the Afghan Military, and video footage of a us gunship killing civilians.
     
  9. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Significantly higher? That's a new spin. From the documents released, the numbers seem to be in line with what either the US or the U.N. have been disclosing, numbers in and around the 60,000 mark. About 4 or 5 years ago the U.N. estimated around 40,000, so the numbers have significantly dropped.

    Compare that to the Lancet Survey, which back in '06 claimed the number of dead at 650,000! The left leaning media and blogoshpere took that be be gospel and ran with it. If you google search now, many people have upscaled that to modern times as being over 1 million dead.

    As far as the young boy prostitutes thing goes, that's really been something the Afghanis have been practicing for centuries. Essentially that's the topic of the book "The Kite Runner." Pretty sick stuff, it's been a part of Afghani culture for a very long time. I am certain most people would have actually favored an even tougher, less restrictive war on that nation if they knew half of the stuff we support to "get along." Such as, oh, opium production, money being funneled straight to business people rather than reconstruction, etc.

    It really is a lesson on not being so trusting of the government you elect. From the looks of things, Obama is absolutely no better than Bush on any of these issues as well.
     
  10. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't honestly think Obama is to blame for this. He can't get bills passed that easily in the public, I'm willing to bet he has more trouble getting things passed in secret.

    In general though, America is "effed".
     
  11. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    Wasn't there something about most of the leaked info being from 2003-2008?
     
  12. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not sure but it honestly wouldn't surprise me. Obama gets blamed for everything though, so I'm not going to be surprised when the finger is pointed at him.
     
  13. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    it's funny how everything is always attributed to the president, no matter whether it was good or bad.
     
  14. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    And now the latest WikiLeaks cables have now landed my country into a PR nightmare. In a very twisted way, seeing my country's bigwigs slating Malaysia was a real lol for no particular reason. But then again, if they can slate M'sia, they should do the same or worse to Taiwan as well. :devilbat:
     
  15. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    We've discovered that our former prime minister told the US ambassador that he had 100% evidence that the two most prominent members of Sinn Féin (a party which is likely to be one of the biggest winners at the next elections) knew in advance about the robbery of £26.5 million from a bank in the north in 2004. He may even be right, and at least one of those politicians may be in our next government. Although hopefully these revelations will be enough to keep them out...

    ...yeah, I wouldn't count on it. I think in the current climate people who steal money from the banks may be considered preferable to people who give them money.

    ETA: And the WikiLeaks phenomenon is spreading. Apparently EU whistleblowers have got themselves organised.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  16. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    s....ince when exactly did Lega Nord change their name to Sinn Féin? ;)

    Well, it's an interesting revelation. I suppose this leak further clarifies the connection between Sinn Fein and IRA?

    lol - sharp :D
     
  17. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    Since the North decided to renounce the South due to it being an excessive economic burden ;).

    (I'm actually on Erasmus this year, hence the location :))
    More or less, or at least that between the IRA and SF in the North - Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams are both definitely of an older generation that radicalised in the 1970's, compared to the southern politicians. SF in the South are mostly younger and less connected to militancy. Most of their current rise in the polls is them trying to sell themselves as a proper socialist party as opposed to our fairly centrist Labour Party (the convenient thing about having no policies beyond "Brits out!" for decades is that you can make them up as you go along). While I'm no supporter of theirs, I'd believe that the party is no longer closely linked to the IRA (although individual members might be).

    That being said, I may just be being naive. I'll admit that hearing about such a recent link surprised me. Bertie Ahern did suggest just after the robbery that McGuinness and Adams had to have known about it but he never said he had anything like "100% evidence", which is what is claimed in the cable. Although of course we haven't actually seen the evidence, so I suppose it's at least possible he exaggerated or outright lied.

    However, the fact that seriously bothers me is that Adams has decided to run for election in the Republic this time around and until now most polls suggested he'd win a seat. I'd like to keep our government as far away from ex-militants as possible, and I thought that even before I heard that he may have been connected to IRA operations as recently as 2004. I really can't think of anything Ireland needs less right now than a reminder of that era of our history.
     
  18. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    lol - Erasmus, being my favourite philosopher, is doing you good, it seems :)

    +2 for LWB :)

    (yes, I know what the Erasmus program is - and I do know it's got nothing to do with philosophy - but regardless...)

    I don't know what Adams' motivation is for not entering the elections - but, on the whole, it speaks in his favour.

    To be honest, from what I understand, Ireland is having a very hard time. Regardless of the history of any party, desperate times call for unsubtle parties. On the whole, it seems that Sinn Fein is leaving militarism behind - it still remains to be one of the more outspoken parties in Ireland. Whatever their history, it seems only logical they would be doing good in any upcoming elections. The fact that they have fought for Irish identity in the past, however, goes a long way to help. I fear this is mostly about emotion...


    Anyway, back to Julian :)


    EDIT: can't rep you... sorry...
     
  19. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    I do like both Erasmus the philosopher and Erasmus the exchange program very much :).

    He is entering the elections - previously he's only been elected in the North, but now he's running in the Republic. On the rest, I do think SF are well on their way to being a purely political party but running Adams is a move I'm just not comfortable with.

    Definitely, I think this derailment has gone on long enough.

    @ azuren: What's your national WikiLeaks crisis? I haven't come across anything on that.
     
  20. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    What concerns me the most is if these leaks will jeopardize US troops. Secondly Assange is at least a spy and I hope something drastic happens. (in a seedy hotel would be fine with me.) As Justice said the "Left leaning media" supports a lot that is not necessarily good for the US. Many may be too young to get this next but the person who is happiest about Obama is Carter as he no longer has the distinction of being the worst President in US history. IMO Obama is the least qualified or competent person to ever hold the office.