Wikileaks and the Afghan front

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by azuren82, Jul 28, 2010.

  1. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Wow, I'm surprised that nobody actually started a debate on the infamous Wikileaks incident. Anyway, I don't think I need to post any articles because all you guys would have known by now the entire major leak of top secret or at least confidential military documents. What do you guys think about this issue and the potential problems that might arise, be it everything said by the US government or otherwise?
     
  2. Jingojolene

    Jingojolene Wayfarer, heartlander

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    Well when I was studying media, we looked up this thing in class that stated the leaking of information must be considered a necessity if the people deserve to know what's going on if it's for their protection, or safety.
    But if it was just general top secret information stuff then I think it's really wrong that it was put onto the internet because anyone who knows how to use a computer can access that information and the leak therefore jeapordised the USA military's plans. :/
     
  3. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    That's the exact issue I'm seeing with the leaks. The nature of this whole problem would have a fatal potential to put the US intelligence people at the very least into a major jeopardy of survival. That plus I'm not too surprised at the revelation in the Pakistani intelligence helping out with the Taliban. The Pakistani bigwigs always have this history of being suspected to play on the other side. Won't surprise me if these bastards actually ended up doing this very shit. In case you don't know, the Pakistani government has always been scared shitless towards the military due to the political potential it had on the whole picture. Now that the military is making a decent albeit belated effort in helping out with the flood victims, the civilian government are virtually FUBARed by the people. That plus the entire terrorist network are building fast upon the anger by the people due to their perceived view that the president doesn't give any two cents about them. :S

    P.S: Any mods can move this to the terrorism thread? Now that I think about it, this one is actually linked directly to the said topic.
     
  4. Jingojolene

    Jingojolene Wayfarer, heartlander

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    Haha that's interesting.
    Ugh this world can be so messed up.
    Anyway, that's frightening. They need some serious media-fied political campaign to take place or the terrorists are going to grip the minds of ordinary people with their indoctrination techniques. It'll be like the Nazi-extremists all over again.
    I also don't think it helps that every time a westerner sees a Pakistani person they assume: terrorist or extremist muslim ahh run or stone them or something equally as racist and horrible!

    >.<
     
  5. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Well, what drives an average Muslim into terrorism isn't so much of religion itself, but rather that of a delusional mentality. When you don't think there's anything left for you to live for, that's when your humanity went unhinged.

    As for the stereotypical Pakistani comment, well it's all down to the fact that the general Pakistani population has always been somewhat anti-US for reasons to their own. I'm not saying it's right or justified, but at least it's understandable from the Westerner's POV since common Islamists view is like US=the West. And it doesn't help that critics of Islam are interpreting the Quran upon the direct wording context. Ironically, all the random extremist bastards are doing the same as well, which is why we're seeing shit happening in terms of terrorism and human rights abuse. -.-
     
  6. Jingojolene

    Jingojolene Wayfarer, heartlander

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    Absolutely yeah... it bugs me that they take it so literally. It's not like they can seriously believe that the writer honestly intended for it to be taken like that.
    I think you're right - they become unhinged, and that's what makes them able to commit to their acts.

    As far as I figure, that makes sense. It was Russia's influence on them, I thought, that made them Anti-US?
    I don't think I know enough about it's history to comment on that though, so don't quote me :p
     
  7. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Anyone who thinks the entire thing is going out of hand here?

    Ars Technica

    In my opinion, Assange is testing Western Democracy; giving deciding power - or at least the information leading up to that - back to the people where, according to the fundaments of the Liberal Democracy, it belongs. Judging the article quoted above, at least the American public can't deal with that anymore. It is not just a nail in the coffin of Democracy. It may well be the final one.

    It also appears to me that this site is a direct result of the way the Bush administration chose to mold the truth to a shape they found to fit their agenda best. The incidents around the Iraq war indicated that other sources than the spokespersons of legislative power were needed to put against "alternative realities" - and what better alternatives than leaked military and intelligence information and other gouvernment sources.

    In the mean time, embarrasment and stress hits the associated intelligence communities around the World. Although not alway succesful, it is their duty to manage these sort of leaking events and people. Sadly their leader, Assange, is now a figure head himself. And the internet is a new medium the intelligence don't quite know how to deal with yet, or so it appears. In that light, the sex offense allegations are remarkably old-school. Given the situation, one might tend support for Assange in that matter.

    Any opinions?
     
  8. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Afghan front?In wikileaks there was a document where the Americans confirmed that the Turkish generals were going to attack my country in order to seize power and oust Erdogan! :eek:

    The famous Sledgehammer plan.And in the document it says that they might try it again in the future.
     
  9. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    kekeke

    Give a man a hammer - and everything looks like a nail

    Give Foinikas a Greek passport - and everything looks like a Turkish invasion ^^
     
  10. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    With Indian accent:

    Noooo it is true!Dey want to invade my contry!Dey want to enslave us all again!

    Ok seriously here it is...


    The Taraf report claimed that the coup plan -- a nearly 5,000-page document -- was agreed at a military meeting attended by 162 active TSK members, including 29 generals. According to the plan, the military was to systematically foment chaos in society through violent acts, among which were planned bomb attacks on the Fatih and Beyazıt mosques in İstanbul. The two are among the most frequented mosques in the city.

    According to the latest military coup plot, titled Sledgehammer, separate bombs would be detonated in İstanbul's Fatih and Beyazıt mosques shortly before and after Friday prayers

    The bomb attacks were code-named “Çarşaf” (Black Chador) and “Sakal” (Beard) and were to be launched on a Friday, shortly after prayers. A nine-member squad -- under the command of a captain identified only by his initials, H.T. -- was to plant a remote-controlled bomb in a shoe cabinet at Fatih Mosque before leaving the building. The bomb would be detonated only seconds after the completion of the Friday prayer. A number of provocateurs would help increase chaotic atmosphere inside the mosque.

    At Beyazıt Mosque, a similar bomb would be placed in the garden of the mosque by a team of gendarmerie officers, led by Maj. H.Ö.

    The bomb would be detonated around 10 minutes before the call to Friday prayer. Provocateurs were to take to the scene once again, this time urging the frustrated crowd to hold violent rallies across the city. The desired result of these rallies would be an increase in domestic pressure on the AK Party government over their failure to ensure the security of people attending prayers at mosques.

    [.....]


    TSK would crash its own jet
    The Thunderstorm Air Operation Plan, part of the coup plan, was dedicated to a number of TSK plots to create tensions between Turkish and Greek military aircraft, which would culminate in a Turkish jet crashing after a skirmish with Greek jets. The TSK would get the jet to crash if the plan failed.

    According to the plan, Turkish military aircraft would provoke Greek pilots by entering Greek airspace. A dogfight between aircraft of the two countries would result in the crash of a Turkish jet. If they were unable to provoke Greece, a Turkish pilot would crash one of the Turkish jets, blaming it on the Greeks. Subsequently, the Turkish media would accuse the AK Party government of failing to ensure the security of the country.

    The tension would increase in the following days, with Turkish security forces patrolling Turkey’s borders with Greece. The Turkish navy would increase the number of training exercises in the Aegean Sea, giving the impression that they were preparing to go to war with Greece. Warplanes would be kept ready for flight at the Balıkesir, Bandırma, Çiğli, Çorlu and Dalaman airports. A group of high-ranking members of the military would increase their dialogue with businessmen, jurists and the public in order to boost the image of the Turkish military in the eyes of the public.


    For the entire article go here: http://muslimvillage.com/forums/topic/56482-turkish-militarys-plans-exposed-balyoz-operation/

    P.S. The plan also included an invasion of Turkey in Evros and occupation of the northern part of Evros(north-eastern Greece).
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2010
  11. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Yeah Foin. Thanks for hijacking another topic :)

    Other than its name makes it out to be, the Mediterranean Sea is not the center of the world. Some topics in the debate thread are not about Greece and the surrounding area. This topic is, or rather, was one of them. We can absolutely debate about Greece's place in the world - and we regularly do. However, few members are from the area. So, when it comes to that, modesty would be an approach for starters. Not in the least because debate is a game of give and take. You give your opinion on matters, whilst seeking opinions on matters concerning you on other occasions. I agree that balance can be tricky - but there needs to be both. As a fourth grader once said: you show me yours, I'll show you mine :)
     
  12. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    No I am not "hijacking another topic",I was referring to the wikileaks and that according to a document there,the americans confirmed that this plan was considered valid.Wikileaks doesn't only talk about Afghanistan.

    And yeah it's true that the Pakis are playing on two teams.If they wanted it the war would have ended years ago.They could have swept the entire tribal areas to their Western borders along with the Americans and allies and SMASHED the terrorists ONCE and for all.Because SOMEHOW all those Talibs are coming from the Pakistani borders in endless numbers.They kill 10 and another 100 appear the next month.
     
  13. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    This was what made me post the entire f*cking thing.And it's all because wikileaks has documents which reveal stuff and what i posted in my previous posts was part of the wikileaks stuff....oh for crying out loud,you get the point.

    Now...suck your lollipop.
     
  14. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Assange needs to circulate the whole release asap as the 'establishment' is clearly trying to shut him up ~ sex offence allegations (convenient/timing?), servers being closed down, funding (Paypal donations) now blocked, warrant out...

    If these were top secret documents they should have been correctly restricted & securely stored, the fact they weren't is down to the US. Whilst most overseas governments are not reacting particularly negatively publicly, I'm sure behind the scenes there'll be long term diplomatic payback / consequences. If I was to sum up what comes out of these cables it's US arrogance, something they'll have to temper as their importance diminishes as Asian economies grow.

    Assange is apparently in the UK on a 6month visa ~ it's a shame an organisation like Amnesty doesn't step in as freedom & truth is at stake :)
     
  15. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    It does seem that the timing of the sex offense allegations are convenient ^^

    BBC News

    The video is especially revealing. If true, of course. Because nothing seems to be what it appears in this case.



    The more I think about WikiLeaks, the more it appears to me that the phenomenon is a symtom of the current zeitgeist. It makes sense that an organisation like WikiLeaks emerges in this period of Internet Freedom and the discussion it brings forth versus the former block of power Blair-Bush formed, and, of course, the liberty they took with truth and reality. Therefore, I am not quite certain whether we (or, at least I) can be anything but neutral towards this organisation and their leaders.
     
  16. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    I think the American governments reaction to the leak only helped legitimize it. They could have dismissed it as loony conspiracy theory stuff if they had ignored it, now everyone knows it's real.
     
  17. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    huh - I think that would have been very damaging in the long term.

    WikiLeaks proofs that the truth will catch up eventually. People would put even less trust in their gouvernment when that lie also comes out.
     
  18. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    It is good for the nation to know who has been living up to their promises and who hasn't. People need to understand how exactly the people they voted in actually act when they think nobody's looking.
     
  19. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    So from what I've heard in a news report earlier on, Assange was arrested in UK pending extradition. So what are you guys' take on that?

    And wanderingmagus, things isn't as simple as what you've think here. We're talking abt random bombshells that can and will impact the international world badly. It's not just whistleblowing. Wikileaks are virtually testing the boundaries of patience different countries have on each other. Of course I doubt a World War 3 or a second Cold War will ensue, but the leaked cables will definitely mean an absolute nightmare in world wide diplomacy.
     
  20. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    He has been arrested, I think his lawyer said so much.

    I really hope we will get some new info on the sex offense charges in Sweden, which are the only charges on the table right now.

    Whether or not the US will file for extradiction will be interesting to see. It doesn't look like it so far, but anything might happen...