Why is murder wrong?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Anduril, Dec 27, 2004.

  1. Anduril

    Anduril Flame of the West

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    I find it interesting this thread has survived so long. Thanks guys. Here's how I see it. If there is a God, then there can be a definite moral code. But if there is no God, then it falls to the highest beings in existence to come up with a code and the next in line is humans. But then there's the interesting thing. What makes one person's opinion so much more valuable than another's? It would seem to me, that if there is no God then there is no definite moral code.
     
  2. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    then there is no definate moral code...
     
  3. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    I highly doubt that anyone is in the position to fully prove whether or not God does exist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2005
  4. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    I agree, Ive said as much before in other threads. It is impossible to have a coherant and just moral code if its potentcy was limited to daily whims or an individual or mass of individuals, or the power of the current administration.

    Athiests obviously have a hard time admitting that their idealogy promotes anarchy.
     
  5. Anduril

    Anduril Flame of the West

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    God is. ;)

    Sorry. I couldn't resist.
     
  6. Boadicea

    Boadicea Warrior Queen

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    Turumbar: I must be explaining my opinions badly, because much of what you're saying is what I believe myself. I think (I'm using your advice here) such forces like Al Quaeda seek to make their religion flourish, that's what I meant about them dominating the world. They seek to destroy the American people because we do not follow the Koran. Now, as for what you say about us no longer having to make such a great struggle to stay alive, correct. I go back to the Bible, when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, it made us pretty much like gods because of our knowledge, and it brought us to this point of technology where we have leisure time. I think it would have been better if that hadn't happened. As to what you said about not thinking people kill eachother for fun: Well, I hope we don't, but there are a few of those crazies out there. I was referring to survival again, concerning the hunting of animals. I wish I could debate live in person, it's difficult to put complete thoughts down in writing, at least for me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2005
  7. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Jack-@$$
     
  8. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    I agree with Skyanide about some one hurting my children. I would have no qualms about doing what is needed to defend my children (I have 3 soon to be 4), my wife or my own life in that order.
    I do believe that murder is wrong but defending onesself or family by ANY means necessary is not.
    On the terrorsits, fanatics are always dangerous no matter what they are fanatic about, wheather they are al qaada, ALF, ElF, (who burn developements or bomb constuctionsites) the people who shoot doctors for doing things they don't believe in (like abortion which I am against with some exceptions) etc. All most All are fanatics.
     
  9. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    With statements like that, I should get your address for when I need garden fertilizer.

    There are plenty of atheists all over the world, that are scientists, doctors, judges, etc. that aren't anarchists or immoral.
     
  10. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    I agree. When asking my atheist friend what his stance on abortion was, he replied, "I'm against it. . . because it's immoral."
     
  11. Anduril

    Anduril Flame of the West

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    True. Being atheistic doesn't have much to do with being a relatively nice person. But I would like to know upon what he bases his beliefs. Don't get me wrong, I agree with his stance on abortion. But an interesting question is this, "If everyone thought something was right, would that make it right?"
     
  12. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    I talked about your question somewhat on the last page when we were discussing the terrorists and "brainwashing". I have no idea upon what he bases his beliefs. But he does have his own sense of morality and lives a much more moral life than most christians that I know. And the only way that something could be proven as the "right" thing to do is if you believe in a creator and the creator says what's right and what's wrong. In then end that's what it would come down to. But of course that can never be proven if there is a creator or not so we are left to make up our own moral code and decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong.
     
  13. Anduril

    Anduril Flame of the West

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    Or live by an absolute moral code whether it be true or nor. But then if you only look at the laws in the Bible as do's and don't's it becomes legalism which Jesus spoke against. Many Christians for instance would say that murder and thieving are wrong simply because of the Ten Commandments but they don't necessarily know why God says they are wrong.
     
  14. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    I totally agree with that. Many christians say that something is against their beliefs because it is against the bible but yet they don't really know why it's wrong or why the writers thought it was wrong. I definately do NOT live by the bible as my reference for what's good and what's bad or what's moral or immoral. I would be one of the first people to admit that. The bible was the word of humans, not God. A rough description of what i see as immoral is anything that seperates us from love(God). With things like homosexuality . . . I don't see it as immoral to bring to homosexuals together in marriage because I don't see how it would be that seperation from love. Now with murder it is the taking of another's life against their will. And if you don't have good cause to take someone's life (like in war or to save your own life) then murder would be that seperation from love and therefor it would be wrong. At least that's how I see it. But I only speak for myself.
     
  15. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    Who is to say that a questionable act wasnt intended as an act of love? In the early 20th century the Australian government took Aboriginee children from their families and raised them with white families. the intent was to help them live a better life and bring the aboriginal population into the civilized world. Clearly their act was harmful but the intent was an act of kindness.

    Is abortion an act of love? Euthanasia? Early parole? Welfare? It would be easy to characterize many things as love which would not be acceptable to you or the majority of people. Who mediates between differences of opinion? What about principals or ethics that fall outside of the range of love? I know this isnt a fair attack on your morality, I just wanted o show how a personal moral code without a specific and grounded set of principals needs a full range of modifiers to be understood and still depends on the personal perspective of the reader. The man from the inner city has a different concept of love than the woman from a small rural neighborhood..

    You make two unstated assumptions in your moral code. One is that everyone can find your morality acceptable enough that you arent imposing on anyone, and second: that if enough people accept your code (or any code) you can justify it's validity by popular acceptance. Without that justification you cant punish people who violate the code. If you dont punish violators, what purpose does the code serve?

    The only way to measure a moral code is to prove it's validity against another moral code. In the absence of a higher authority there is no way to justify the superiority of a moral code against another, or even against the absence of one. If anarchy is equally valid, then the others cannot be (ethically) enforced. Therefore anarchy becomes morally superior as the only code that is enforcable (by the lack of enforcement). You either have to find a higher authority or create one. Saying that somebody else created one first isnt enough.

    To the point: From where does an athiest have the right or the cause to believe that murder is an immoral act? In the same vein, where does the authority come from that enables the limitation of rights / punishment of someone who commits murder?
     
  16. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    Perhaps re-reading my last sentence would help you understand my "philosophy" a little better.

    Oh and read this one too:

    "A rough description of what i see as immoral is anything that seperates us from love"
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2005
  17. kartaron

    kartaron Hunter / Gatherer

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    Which is why I wrote this:
    I know this isnt a fair attack on your morality, I just wanted to show how a personal moral code without a specific and grounded set of principals needs a full range of modifiers to be understood and still depends on the personal perspective of the reader.
     
  18. steelpounder

    steelpounder New Member

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    It is possible to have a strong moral code without religious belief. I am not what many would call religious, However I always tell the truth to the best of my knowledge, I never break my word or my promises unless it is outside my ability to control. I never cheat or steal.
    I was brought up to believe that you don't lie or break your word etc.
    It has worked for me and people who know me know I live by my code.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2005
  19. curunir's bane

    curunir's bane Kwisatch Haderach

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    OK then i'm on the same page. Good for me.
     
  20. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    A life is gods gift to humans. Who are you to take the life of another being? except in cases of self defence or war taking the life of an individual is robbing that person of gods gift. thats my opinion and most (if not all) of you probably think god is fake and all but thats what I believe. say what you want...