Where can I learn swordfighting

Discussion in 'Historical Re-enactment' started by FireSnake, Mar 19, 2005.

  1. Baka

    Baka Commander of 1000 fools

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    21 inches to hit them with the blade perpendicular to me. Yes, I can initiate a grapple from that same distance, but it's not an effective grapple, more of just a grab. Besides, sticking my arm out with no weapon to guard it is asking to be maimed. A modern drive step would be very hard in heavy armor.
    A medieval single handed sword may be pointy at the end, but something that heavy is not a serious thrusting weapon. A short sword is a thrusting weapon, and so is a dagger, but a two and a half to three and a half pound weapon is awkward for a during combat thrust. It's better used to finish someone on the ground.

    The answer to your last question is that given a choice I would avoid using one handed weapons against a person in full plate if at all possible. if I had to use one I would use a mace since it has the crushing power to hurt him through the armor. Then I might use a wrap shot, but not with a sword unless I knew very well what I was doing. If I had to use a sword it would be a great sword.
    Preferably I would use a high powered crossbow with an armor piercing tip, or early gunpowder weapons.
    The problem with this conversation is that by the time you have seriously good plate, it's 1400. The era of the knight is starting to die off. All that awesome plate coming out of Milan is being created during the early renaissance. Most of what SCA heavy fighting is simulating is early middle ages combat. Many of the manuals also come out once printing is cheaper, i.e. the renaissance. German sources are an exception, but many of them are still later.
     
  2. Orkin

    Orkin The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Talhoffer and Fiore dei Liberi both come from the High Middle Ages, not the Renaissance. One of the most popular Fechtbuchs right now is the I.33 from about 1300.
     
  3. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

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    Just FYI a rapier is in the realm of 3 plus pounds in weight and its prmarily a thrusting weapon, and during the rise of mail as armor I do beleive that was when swords with a more acute taper began apearing, making them more weidly on the thrust. Wight isnt as much of an issue as you may believe, blaance is more important.

    NOw what is your point when the fetchbucher were printed?


    @ orkin
    There are fechtbucher from teh renaissance in the leichtenauer tradition, Meyer comes to mind and he has a section on the "rappier"
     
  4. Baka

    Baka Commander of 1000 fools

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    I've picked up a shloggar(I don't think that's spelled right not spelled right), it's not any three pounds. Don't even try comparing epees or foils to that. I do light strength training with iron pipe that weighs slightly over three pounds, I know what that weighs like.
    How much a sword was built as a thrusting weapon depends a lot on where you are, and at what time. Romans used the gladius which was a thrusting weapon, and that was very early. However, if you look at many Viking swords they are wide, and some look more like cutlasses. Rapiers are during the renaissance and not used on people with armor on often. The reason it's called the Three Musketeers is because they use muskets. Muskets go through plate.
    Chainmail can be punctured. We weren't talking about that, or plate mail if that's what you meant. Against mail I would use a wrap since into the 1300s many people who are still rich enough for good armor have nothing more than chainmail on their necks. Chainmail does pad more than it looks like, but it's no plate. That's why we put gorgets under chainmail.
     
  5. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

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    A schlager is NOT a rapier. hey are shorter and not meant to be used like a rapier. They were designed to be used in German university duels that used cuts. And maybe you should get a historically acurate rapier and weigh it. Or look at the weights given for the better rapiers that are sold today. ANd an Iron pipe thats weighs slightly over 3 pounds will move differntly than a sword weighing slighlty over 3 pounds because the weight is disbuted equally through out the pipe where as a sword will have more weigh in teh hilt to the sword will feel lighter.
    And muskets dont always go through plate, during teh renaisannce there was a lot of plate that was proofed agsint muskets ie they took it out and shot at it to make sure a musket ball would not penetrate and many soldiers woudl not use armor that did not have the proof ie the ding.

    But you can go ahead and believe in the useful of a technique that has never been made note of in the hundresds of years that man has used swords and armor in open field battle. If it were really a technique that works I am sure the countless professional soliders and knights during the period that maille was used would ahve stumbled upon it and it would have been made a a not of in, in either a manual or historical artwork.
     
  6. Baka

    Baka Commander of 1000 fools

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    This is irrelevant, but you either need to proofread or slow down on your typing. It's getting harder to read.
    A schlager is closer to a period rapier in weight and construction than anything used in modern fencing. Maybe you have it confused with a saber which is used for lots of cuts. If you hold a sword at the balance point it feels very similar in weight (I said nothing about movement or apparent blade weight. I weight my swords, so I know the difference) to the pipe held at it's balance point. I am aware that there was plate that could stop very early muskets. However, it was not perfect, and did not work on all points of the armor. If you think it did, you're a moron. The musketball does not even have to penetrate to injure someone. Inertia is enough. The same theory is used in mass weapons. (not the SCA concept, real ones) Even if something can be blocked or fails to penetrate armor it can still injure someone. Also, as guns improved, they won the arms race. Once you get into the 1500's, plate is primarily decoration, and possibly tournament armor.
    As for a wrap shot, I never said that I believed that it was extremely effective against armor. You aren't reading, or else you aren't understanding it. I started off by saying the motion can be done with a sword. If you don't believe me, go back and read the post. I never claimed that it would penetrate plate, though I don't think that you think that I said that. And they did use the blow with at least one weapon because it was inevitable, and part of the purpose of the weapon.
    As for inventing things. They could have invented clothespins, but they didn't. Things that make sense to someone far later, is not necessarily invented by people who are capable of it.
     
  7. Kellarly

    Kellarly Snow Merchant

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  8. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

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    Actualyl I am right about schalger blades being meant for a specific type of dueling using the edge, and I dont ahve it confused with the sabre, eitehr the dueling form which is straighter or the military forms which tended to be more curved. And as for schlager blades being teh closest thing to a preiod rapier for fencing. Thats false the clsoet things to a period rapier for fencing is a rapier, which you can buy people to make rapier blades.

    IM not desputing that a wrap can or cannot be done with a sword. I know it can be. Ive done it and Ive seen it done. I did SCA heavies and lights for almost 5 years, I know all kinds of little trick shots and such. Nor am I saying that you claimed that a sword blow, wrap or other wise would pentrate plate. So why dont you get yourself some tatami or other suitable cutting target and throw wraps at it and video tape and post the vids online.
    Some suggestions for cutting targets are...
    Tatami
    two litre bottles filled with warm water
    milk jugs filled with water
    watermelons
    foam pool noodles

    And the acuracy of that article is questionable.
    But you might want to check out SFI anyways and ask peopl about how good the wrap shot is.
     
  9. Baka

    Baka Commander of 1000 fools

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    I'm glad that you are not saying that. Since your previous post's last paragraph seemed to indicate otherwise, since I don't know how you would get that strong an impression from what I posted.
    That article seems to have some serious flaws in it, though the picture looks a lot like many peoples schlagers, so maybe I should revise my statement to SCA shlagers, then again, I'm afraid I don't have enough to switch that entirely yet. I just went to a Cleveland Museum that has an armor and weaponry section. Unfortunately, most of it very late to out of period, and so is not useful for a discussion about SCA period equipment. I was very annoyed. It was also effectively pointed out to me that a normal one handed sword is going to do shit to late plate no matter what you're doing with it. That doesn't count bypassing the armor though there are damn few locations that you can.
    However, I also looked at the 17th century rapiers they did have there, and the comments about them being large, heavy, and slow are crap. They were far too small to be considered that. Only in a comparison to far later technology can they be considered that. They are about twice as thin as other contemporary fighting swords. There is no way that that can be as heavy.
    Why the hell would I use a watermelon? Smashing watermelons is a crowd pleaser.
    The biggest problem with your suggestion is the sword. I don't have one, don't wish to spend for one, and don't have any friends who would loan me one for that kind of what they would deem idiocy. Anybody on the net is suspect, and not to be taken seriously in their view. It makes sense, but it's limiting.
    The only friend I have that said he would loan me one, has nothing but stupid wall hangers because he's a mostly mundane teenager with too much money to waste on stuff like that. Otherwise I'd love to do that since a couple of those materials will break from a large knife. My definition of large being over 4 inches.
     
  10. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

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    yeah early arming swords, one handed swords, were pahsed out as armor got better at being armor and two handed weapons became more common ,longsword greatsword and polearms, because you didnt need to use a sheild and you could use more strength because you are using both hands.

    Just because a rapier blade is more narrow doesnt not mean its thinner, they get rather thick, well thicker than an arming sword and there is alot more metal in the hilt than on sword with simple crossgaurd. And the cross section and geometry of a schlager is different froma rapier.

    Ofcourse anyoe on teh net is suspect but when the poepo on the net are people who are respect historianes and sword makers and such then they cease to be suspect

    And as for test cutting being idiocy, unless you have cut with a sword then you arent learning all there is about how to use swords.
    And how much have you spent on armor rattan and tape in all the years of being in the SCA?
     
  11. Baka

    Baka Commander of 1000 fools

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    The sword thickness on many of the ones at the museum actually came from being a triangular blade. Triangular meaning like a tapering triangular prism. I had only seen that in things like stillettos before.
    The problem with credentials on the net, is that if you work carefully at it, you can say a lot of bullshit that sounds right, claim that you have credentials, and be believed. Whats worse are the people with credentials who do something fun, that isn't right, and people latch onto it as if it were.
    I guess I didn't explain the idiocy part well enough. The idiocy the see, is me taking too seriously someone on the net who I don't know. They are aware of the usefulness of test cutting. At the very least the fencers have to have their stuff pass the punch test for saftey reasons.
    You can never learn all there is to know about swords. Studying much of it does not require use. You can read up on types, metallurgy, history, physics, etc without touching one. All you learn from wielding one, ok it's a pretty large all, is what they feel like, and how hard they actually are to use , and how to fight with one yourself. I'm sure that you've noticed that practicing with live steel, even blunted, is far more dangerous than using a bokken, or a piece of rattan, so sorry, I won't do that, especially against another human, despite the learning opportunities. Call me a fool and I won't say you're wrong.
    I've spent incalculable amounts on duct tape, and nothing on rattan. The rattan is due to being given stuff. I'm not usual in that aspect. I will also not claim to have been fighting for an extremely long time, only about 3 years. I'm no knight.
    Out of curiosity, where are some of the other people on this forum fighting? They aren't talking about kendo or something like that, and they are making weapons which suggests it isn't a formal martial art. Is it just backyard fooling around, or something serious?
     
  12. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

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    You have good poitn about "credentials"

    I wouldnt clal you a fool not wishing to do steel, blunted or other wise. You are much smarter than the fools ho wuse their wallhanger stainless katanas agsint eachother. But sparring and testcutting are differnt things. Head on over the swordforum.com maybe there are some people nearby who might let you come by for a cutting party.

    ADn you are lucky If I had been given free rattan ( and armor) I would be doing heavies still.

    I honestly have no idea how many of the people here are real martial artists with a real background in swordfighting and how many are real.
    I myself are right now stuck to being an armchair warrior because IM too lazy and poor to start looking for people to start up a group where I live. I say poor because I know a group that has some safety issues due to most everyone refuseing to buy headgear and I would rather buy headgear for others to use than fight without it. The same for weaponry.
    And some people take backyard fooling around seriously.
     
  13. Bard

    Bard Erchamion

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    I take it quite seriously, infact I was thinking about making a movie of it.
     
  14. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

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    DUDE!!!!!!! I so totally love your avatar. I need a bumper sticker like that.
     
  15. Bard

    Bard Erchamion

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    Thanks...