What would happen if Communism actually worked?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Forgotten Realms, Jan 21, 2012.

  1. Forgotten Realms

    Forgotten Realms Human Version of Drizzt

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    I know that we do not have Communism but have already pondered about its original sources and how they were transformed. There are worlds between - means the deviation is too strong to tell.

    So, perhaps it should be more specified which sort of Communism is meant: The one of the original sense developped by Lenin or the one transformed by Stalin and other "dictators" of the East. Best would be to consider both of them.

    If Communism would have really worked in its original sense that would have been great as also was democracy at the time of Sokrates and Solon. Really all people equal, no rich - no poor, mutual support when someone is in need, no ancient nor modern slavery, really no slavery to "money" (that would still be the question because most people cannot without), everyone owns a bit, everyone cares for the other. Really great!

    If Stalin would have worked I probably I had acted against him in the Underground to preserve and rescue people from his regime but his way of Communism ceased with his death.

    So, what is up to you? What do you think?
     
  2. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    On paper communism isn't that bad a way of life - and if you look at China they've actually lasted a good long while under a communist system; heck at present a large part of the democratic west is currently supported by the communist china. They produce clothes, commodities and currently their economy is geared up to service ours - whilst in turn their finances are supporting our own so that we continue to support theirs.


    Communism in itself isn't any more or any less evil than monarchies, democracies or any other form of governance. A great part of the "communism is evil" stems from propaganda during the early days when the way to change into communism generally was a revolution and putting the then rules heads on spikes and suchlike; therefore many democratic nations invested a lot into ensuring that their people did not want communism - that it was viewed as evil etc..... so that they in turn would not end up with their heads on spikes.

    Furthermore communism manages to retain a level of control with a longer term plan and overall agenda through the ability to have a singular person in power for a long period of time. This is in contrast to many democracies which suffer long term because each ruling power only thinks in short term bursts.

    That said communism, either by the way it was introduced to many nations or through some failing in the application of theory into reality, has resulted in much more oppression and cruelty to "the people" than democratic nations. At least within recent times. Is this the result directly of communism itself or a virtue of the fact that many nations became communist through military and revolution action - putting people in power who were, perhaps, not the best at ruling a nation so much as conquering it.

    China in itself has made it work (though I suspect greatly because of the virtue of their methods of ruling before communism, setting a very strong paving in society to adapt to communism) though one can see that there is still great suffering to many of their population; whilst also a general move toward adapting many western features. Time will tell, but I suspect they'll end up with some merged version of communism and democracy - most likely in the form of more empowerment to their people. China also has a bit of a timebomb in its social structure, with a massive lacking in females of their own people (as a result of the one child policy and social structure in china). So part of a social restructuring might well come from the simple fact that their people end up mingling far more with other nations.
     
  3. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    If communism allowed and cooperated with the Church,meaning that if I could have an Orthodox country that would have communism and would also be patriotic and not oppressive,I wouldn't mind having communism.The thing is that communism has some good things,national-socialism has some good things,so why can't we combine these good things with Monarchy as well and make a good governing system? :p
     
  4. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    The problem with Communism is that it appears to be easily corrupted, and once done it's nearly impossible to undo. If we consider hardcore Socialism to be softcore Communism than perhaps in that way it does work somewhat. I think the achilles heel of Communism is that all the branches of government operate in collusion. In a western style democracy you have a clear separation of power in which one or another branch can check the power of a third. We have bad laws passed by our Federal and State legislatures all the time... they are often challenged and routinely struck down by the courts. The President can be impeached and removed from office, the justice system can operate without interference from the lawmakers, and so on.
     
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  5. Firiath

    Firiath Halfling barbarian

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    I would say this question cannot be answered. If it actually worked, who knows, Western countries might have adapted this concept, but we can never say for sure, as there is no political system in the world that actually works (and by 'working' I mean that every person living in the respective society is happy with the system they live in).
     
  6. Emelie

    Emelie Queen of darkness

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    What would happen if communism worked; I'm thinking that if everyone worked really hard, shared love for that ideology, had similar goals and means to achieve those goals, plus a good leader, it might work very well.

    But as it is, power corrupts, there are people that doesn't want to work and it's not right for them to have the same economical standards as those who work their butt off and have years of education. And if there's a classless society where everyone shares equal, no poor no rich, some might loose the will to work toward personal goals. They might feel no need to educate themselves or move forward.

    I think it all comes down to that the people living with that ideology really wants the same thing(every single one of them, which isn't likely), and knows how to achieve a good society. But then there might not be room for being individuals, but just one big mass.
     
  7. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    every single political system failed in the past and will always fail. That happens cause there is the fact that Human + Power = Corruption.

    And i agree with firiath and believe the same. That communism have supporters and every system in the world had or have supporters, they also have enemies... And while there are two or three people in the world that are different from the political system then the system fails. Plato spoke in Politeia book about the human failure in political system and critised even himself cause he thought that Oligarchy the system of Sparta could help Athens from corruption. Although both democracy and oligarchy failed when used in Athens... So Plato created the ideal world a political system that no humans are involved to power while he was banished from his country city state....
    This is a good reason that i believe that there is God, the creator of humans, a person that know human's weakness and that could unite all humans under one political system, cause human are unable to create it.

    We see capitalism that is worst than communism... Crisis is everywhere now... France is not AAA no its AA....And democracy are even worst than ancient tyranny... no politician in my country that stole public money is in jail... cause they have political asylum due to democracy...
     
  8. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Are you actually saying that we should give up on governing ourselves in favor of a one-world-government system, under God. Yeah, there's no room for corruption in that. Are you insane?.. I think I'm going to be sick.

    Our democracies are not worse than ancient forms of government, that is simply religious fanaticism on your part.

    Here I am, with no more than a High School diploma for formal education, a first generation American born and raised of immigrant parents... and yet through hard work and perseverance, and some luck, I live in a nice historic home, drive a nice car, and have a job I like working with people I respect. That would not have been possible in ancient times, nor even in most modern times... democracy and the free market are far from perfect, but then no system of government and commerce is perfect. The system of government must have a way to correct itself, and at times even purge itself... democracies allow for this. At least the better functioning ones do.
     
  9. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    Sparrow a simple question... Did you want USA to go to war with Iraq??
     
  10. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    In ancient times politicians that took public money were banished from Athens and their fortune was given to state if you want to speak for democracy... In democracy today they still got their chair... and power due to political asylum so don't talk bullshit to me...

    In ancient times rich or poor had the same rights... Now in USA thousand of people are living without health insurance... I laugh on what you saying...

    I think that you live in your world sometimes....your utopia...
     
  11. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    No I did not.
    I was vehemently against the invasion of Iraq as I suspected that neither the government or people of Iraq had anything to do with the events of September 11. If your point is... 'are the people who make up a democracy always going to behave in an intelligent and appropriate manner'... well, of course not. The invasion of Iraq represents the worst that we are, belligerent and aggressive, and stupid. But as that event is not the total picture of what we are as a people then you must factor in those times we did the right thing. Helping the people of Libya to overthrow a tyrant, lending aid and support to numerous counties around the world after natural disasters, even countries like Pakistan that decidedly don't like us.

    There's a general feeling in this country that we should begin to pull back from the world, not intercede or help other fledgling democracies, to somehow disengage from the bigger picture. I think that would be a mistake.
     
  12. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    No, sorry, in ancient times the rich and poor did not have the same rights. To say such a thing means you are poorly educated, or just plain stupid. There was little if any representation in government for anyone but the merchant class, aristocracy, nobility, royalty. The poor did as they were told and lived lives we could hardly imagine, they were pressed into forced service of the State during wars, were the first to starve during famine, and had no voice in government except at the end of a sword or a pitchfork.

    Now let me ask you a question... do you live in your own house, drive a car, have any confidence that your retirement savings will be there when it comes time to retire?


    And I'm not searching for a Utopia... that appears to be what you'd like the world to become, with your silly God ruling our lives. It's utterly ridiculous.

    The biggest difference between me and you isn't the belief in a God, it's that I take full responsibility for my life and don't blame the government for my failures.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  13. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    5th century BC Athens democracy (poor and rich same rights) please read.... Do you know that the poor athenians voted of every matter of the state with black or white stone??? To go to war or not??? To make a trading alliance or not... PLEASE READ before you doubt what i m saying... ITS MY ****ING JOB TO STUDY THE ANCIENT ERA...

    And yes sparrow i m living in my appartment in Pireaus and i got a car and i can't speak about future...

    If you are against the war in Iraq why your goverment bombed Iraq??? Come on don't tell my that your goverment gives a shit of what you are thinking... Goverments are puppets of global markets... Money is ruling not your democracy... please wake up...
     
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  14. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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  15. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    it would be pretty awesome, because Idea of communism is kind of good
     
  16. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Yes I know, I know, I know... those are what we in the business call, IDEALS.
    The poor in Athens, or any ancient civilization that I've read about, were not the equal of anyone but other poor people and one notch above a slave. Which brings me to another question... we're there slaves in ancient Athens?.. did women vote?

    Ideals aren't only reserved for ancient Athens; if in two thousand years an archeologist digs up a copy of the Constitution of United States of America they would no doubt be impressed that this young nation created in 1776 began with "We the people..." except it wasn't all the people was it? It was white men, and not even all white men. Women had very few rights, half the country was made up of 'slave' States and Native Americans were being killed or relocated westward. Our Constitution was as worthless to those people as those laws you mention from ancient Athens were to the poor.
     
  17. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    1.The ancient Greek democracy is far better than the USA democracy... (Bush says we go to war USA goes to war....)
    2. The communism is far better than capitalism... (China vs global crisis. Is it 3 trillions your debt , and your sons and your grandsons to Chinese people??)

    No need to analyze it more sparrow, its simple.

    You speak of ideals (greek word) when you don't even know that there are texts of courts in ancient greeks that prove us that poor people ****ed rich corrupted people in the Areios Pagos ( the High court of Athens city state)...
    You still believe that ancient were gays while it is proven that this was a myth.
    You still believe that you have democracy when from the time you were born your country have never faced real democracy...
     
  18. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    But then again here I am, and there you are.
    Americans have been to the moon, our telescopes see into the deepest reaches of the Universe, our war machine is second to none, the world listens to our music watches our movies and hangs on our every action... we are Empire. Greece is a third rate socialist nation living off long past glory and only enters the consciousness of the world because it can't pay it's bills. The new Greek mythos.
     
  19. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    You are off topic again... We speak about political systems not our countries and achievements.
    I proved you wrong about the super USA democracy... (you didn't want to bomb Iraq , Although your president went against the public opinion. DEMOCRACY)And you speak me about the Universe and your war machine.... Grow up.... When people don't have good arguments then they start talking of how superior they are... Don't tell these things to me! Tell them to communist China!

    And by the way if you want to speak about achievements look at your White house, greek architecture!
     
  20. Kakashi

    Kakashi The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Keep in mind:
    a) Athens had a much smaller population- Representative democracy is the only democracy that will work in america
    b) Groups including women and foreigners were excluded in Athens- Not everyone was involved, you can't say it's what the public wanted
    c) Don't call the U.S. a 'war-machine' when Athens was far worse and if they're known for anything it should be for starting wars with other city-states for no reason. Don't pretend like there weren't a large amount of people who didn't agree with what the state did.
     
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