What the hell is wrong with Russia!?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Crouton, Nov 23, 2012.

  1. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    You managed to destroy the Iraqi army OOOOH WHAT AN ACHIEVEMENT!Lol!With their downgraded Soviet export models of the T-72 tank and the hundreds of old T-55s,T-62s and Chinese monkey models of Soviet tanks,Iraqis having little to low quality training and morale and little skills compared to Western countries!Saddam with his old-school ineffective Soviet air defence!Hahahahaha!GIVE ME A BREAK Sparrow! Lol!

    How many gigantic forces tried to take over Russia?The Mongols,the Grande Armee of Napoleon,Hitler's Wehrmacht!

    Come and get it then Sparrow!

    [​IMG]
     
  2. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    too bad I cant rep that

    VV or for some ^^
     
  3. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    The USSR, is now Russia... that monumental change came about because of America.
    We did what the Mongols, Napoleon, and Nazi Germany failed to do, and we did it mostly by proxy and with our economic might. There is no debating it, open up an old world map and see what has become of your Soviet Union, it's gone; their influence is gone, all they have is distant memories and pretensions of glory.

    I imagine the Russians look down at Greece as the rest of the world does, as a country populated by cowards.
     
  4. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Lol keep living in your fairy-tale world,you underestimate Russia and that's a big mistake.I remember Hitler saying "knock down the door and the whole structure will collapse".
     
  5. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    To be fair Nazi Germany would have flattened Russia if

    1) They'd finished off the UK first, which they were close to doing & 2) They had provisioned for winter warfare

    Instead Hitler opened the second front against Russia thus splitting his armies, allowing UK to recover and act as a staging point for D-Day as well as provisioning Russia with the Arctic convoys. In short it was Hitler's stupidity which defeated them in the East not Stalin & the Russian armies.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  6. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Also lets not forget that the German advance into Russia could have done a lot better if they hadn't overstretched their own supply lines so drastically. They basically rushed into Russia like mad, hoping to resupply from conquered land, only to find the Russians adopted a slash and burn method whereby the destroyed their own supplies and pulled down their own factories so that the German advance couldn't get any additional resources.

    The result was that they ran out of provisions, ammo, moral and basically then got beaten back. A slower advance could certainly have still at least held the front - lets not forget the mainstay of the Russian tactics were still based heavily around trying to choke the german war machine with bodies (heck the Russian infantry didn't even have enough guns to go around so it was expected that if you didn't get a gun you'd just pick one up from whoever got shot before of you - from your own side).
     
  7. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    One could expect Hitler to be more smart and cautious when trying to attack and conquer all of Russia but he proved as dumb and arrogant as Napoleon.

    By the way,some say it was Hitler's delay in Greece that forced him to delay his attack in Russia.Mussolini's armies were being annihilated and Hitler had to step in to save his arrogant ally.Of course Great Britain too was a huge thorn on Hitler's side.Some historians say that Hitler attacked Greece so that the British wouldn't attack him from the South seeing that our king back then was pro-English.
     
  8. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Napoleon - despite being beaten a few times - was generally a very good general.
    Hitler wasn't - in fact he was pretty much a disaster in the War Room. The only reason he got convinced of his skills was because during the early days of the War the German war machine rolled over their opponents like a steamroller. You basically couldn't make any mistakes at that stage because the attack was so unexpected, the opponents so unprepared for war and the new designed tactics so revolutionary that even those who were more armed were simply not able to deal with the invasion. Couple that with all the general praise people like to lavish upon their rulers during good times and it gave him more of an inflated ego than was healthy - esp when resistance became more effective.

    Sadly by then the strict structure of the control over the country mean that Hitlers word was law - so even his generals could not refuse the orders he gave even if they went against all conventional military sense. As a result when Hitler tried to repeat the same tactics that won the early battles in the latter ones they fell apart. I recall one documentary stating that retreat was something Hitler was greatly opposed to even when retreat on certain fronts was the logical move to make and that to continue the attack was to waste resources and lives.
     
  9. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Yes I agree with you.Napoleon actually wanted to find the Tsar in the battlefield and destroy the Russian army in one huge battle and then conquer Russia.He was counting on that.But the Tsar kept moving East falling back all the time and Napoleon's army was stretching its supply lines.Not to mention that when he invaded Russia had the worst winter in a very very long time and "coincidentally" the same thing happened when Hitler invaded too!
     
  10. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    It's China who is the biggest concern militarily now ~ huge population, huge army, new aircraft carriers, space programme paid for by the military.... and they're increasingly buying the west up too :) Future generations will be learning mandarin not english.

    As a last thought on Germany; given how hard-working, well -organised, well-educated, successful & careful with their cash they are perhaps Europe would have been a more successful continent if Hitler had won the war! It goes without saying that that's assuming a more peaceful and democratic post Hitler phase without the gas chambers.
     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I read in a book that the Waffen SS was a kind of first European army or Hitler's "crusade" against the Soviet Union was the first NATO.
     
  12. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I don't think Nazi Germany could adopt a peaceful approach at least not easily. It was a system of rule geared up for war and because of the vast success it was also one people were not willing to reject (and later were not able to reject because of the secret police).
    I suspect had it not been stopped it would have continued on its war efforts as much as it could, the country needing both new land and opponents to keep the internal power structure in place and running. It could even has collapsed into itself under the weight of its own policies and approaches - that is unless they could radically turn around and change the nature of the regime.


    That said the German people and rulers certainly seem to have more of an eye for the future than many other nations politicians - they seem to enact policies which take a longer term view over things instead of just gunning for the short term gains. They are also deathly afraid of a Nazi rise round two (lets not forget it only took something like 4-5 years to go from basically 3rd world to almost the world superpower of its day) which I suspect makes them a bit more eager to ensure that the country will survive in a good state long term.
     
  13. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Aw, you anti-European, you. Whilst Greeks paint toothbrush mustachios on Angela Merkels upper lip, you gear up to promote Hitler as a potential saviour or Europe. Cute as a button.^^



    On the other hand: Russia and LGBT issues.
     
  14. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    ^ Not anti-European at all Tur just anti-EU, nor pro-Hitler but admire Germanic work ethic. Big differences.
     
  15. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    In any way I would love to see a Tsarist Russia back again,strong and with a lot of "I don't care" attitude that Putin has.
     
  16. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    Tsarist Russia once hired actors to play Russian villagers to impress a foreign envoy because actual Russian villagers were too poor.

    And the "I don't care" attitude Putin has would be fun to read about in history books hundreds of years from now, but try convincing Chechnyans or Syrians that that makes it worthwhile. It's not a responsible way to run a country and it isn't good for the long-term prosperity of the Russian people.
     
  17. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    You really wanna talk Syrians and Russian politics on Syria now?Is that what you want?You really do?Huh?
     
  18. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    Russia should be strongly condemned for it's support of al-Assad, who is unjustly murdering thousands of civilians. Direct foreign military involvement I think shouldn't happen but nobody should actively be supporting Assad. I guess it's okay though because of Putin's admirable "I don't care" attitude. So yes, I am gonna judge Putin on the opinions of Syrians.
     
  19. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    Not to mention the band Pussy Riot, amongst probably hundreds of other non-reported cases of unjust detainment.
     
  20. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Wait a min....first,and I hope you don't,do you mean that USA or the big NATO heads are acting differently?

    But no no let's stay on the Syria thing.Russia has been providing weapons to Syria the last 50 years or so.Assad's regime may not be the most democratic out there but if you think it's anything close to Saddam's or Stalin's or Myanmar's junta it's not.

    Assad's Syria guarantees that all minorities and religions are equal by the constitution and Assad and the Syrian Arab Army is fighting for a secular Syria.Syria was one of the best places in the Middle-East to visit before the "rebels" started their stuff.

    Do you think of the FSA and all the other rebels in Syria as freedom fighters?
     
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