What Should "We" Do About ISIS?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by RayCaptain, Jan 3, 2015.

  1. RayCaptain

    RayCaptain 如朱

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    "We" being the governments of the world. ISIS, Ansaru, and other Wahhabi Islamist groups have declared their desire to wage global Jihad, and, in some cases, unite the world into a Caliphate. What do y'all believe should be done in response? There are those here in the States that think we should remain totally hands off, pull out of every non-US location on the planet and let the dice fall where they may. Others want to nut-up and get to dishing out some serious hurt on the baby-killing, infidel-crucifying, women-raping parasites and their Caliph. A lot of other folk fall somewhere in the middle.

    I myself think that these groups pose a serious threat on both a global and domestic level, and to every individual who fulfills one or more following criteria:

    1. You aren't too terribly keen on being beheaded, stoned, blown up, or otherwise massacred.
    2. You like bacon.
    Anyway, on a serious note, the humanitarian crisis these cats are causing is unprecedented in recent history. Millions have been killed, displaced, or are currently trapped by the Caliph's baconless army of goons, and entire countries from the Maghreb to Babylon are trying to keep these guys from hacking, slashing, and gutting their way to a particularly gory set of borders for a nation created in a rather sickening way. This is some Dark Age stuff they're doing, and, at the current rate of things, it doesn't look like this plague of vermin will be removed from the surface of the Earth near soon enough.
     
  2. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    I'm of two minds on ISIS and other hardline Islamic groups, and how we combat the threat they pose to the world. Ultimately it should be those people in Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, parts of Asia, and elsewhere that should do the fighting. Failing that, my philosophy on war is that you don't do it by half, and avoid doing it by proxy. We did it by half in Iraq, and again in Afghanistan and the sum total of both conflicts is plain to see. We failed to change the sociopolitical landscape to the degree that's needed for those countries to join the 21st Century.
    If America is to engage ISIS, and expect a lasting result, then I'm of the opinion that it must be a declared total war.
    I wonder if the folks on this forum have cared to view some of the videos available on the internet of ISIS soldiers executing prisoners? I've watched some of them and I can tell you it almost seems surreal. The major news outlets won't broadcast the videos and I think it's outrageous that so many Americans could care less about innocent people being brutalized and murdered.
    I am in agreement with you, ISIS and their confederates should be removed from the planet.
     
  3. Firiath

    Firiath Halfling barbarian

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    I'm not sure I like the idea of war, that is, not only the idea that people from my country go somewhere else to die trying to fight ISIS (although I would certainly love to see them "be removed from the planet", as Sparrow said), but also spending horrendous amounts of money on war instead of things like education, internal security, or just things we need to be able to hold out against the threat and that could prevent the development of a similar threat inside my country. I probably sound like a coward, a turtle hiding in its shell, and yeah, that's probably what I would do - make sure my country is strong enough to keep the threat out, and help refugees trying to get away from it. I guess it's a good thing I'm no politician. :p

    Although you said, Ray, that with "we" you mean our governments, the threat title has made me wonder what we - what I - should do. The question should probably be: What could we do? I don't have an answer to this question, but it's still something to think about.
     
  4. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    It's the dilemma we all face, eliminating the elements of fanatical Islam that threaten the modern world, without breeding hatred for the vast majority of practicing Muslims who are as we are, law abiding good people.
    Since September 11, we've had our own issues in this country in regards to this. But when the dust settles clearer minds have prevailed. Speaking from my own experience, my auto mechanic is either Jordanian or Lebanese, the electrician I use is Iranian, the plumber I've had come in and clean up my mess is from Albania and is also a muslim.
    So you see, America is still America.:D
     
  5. Firiath

    Firiath Halfling barbarian

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    This is currently a huge deal in Germany because of the PEGIDA movement. The acronym means translated "patriotic Europeans against the Islamisation of the occident (or Western world)", which is just what right-wing extremists have been waiting for, because it lures many simple-minded people who somehow feel threatened by Islam into their xenophobia.
    Although I am aware that Islam can pose a threat (just like all religions, but that's another discussion) I don't see any Islamisation around here (and I live in a city with a large number of non-German inhabitants), and I've been speaking out against this movement for a while, but I feel like discussions and even protests don't lead us anywhere (especially because you can't argue with racists). :(
     
  6. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    There's no shortage of racists in America, but happily there is no real organized movement toward such a thing as protecting our national identity. We're too busy "Americanizing" the rest of the world to worry about what might be undermining our silly culture.:) In the metropolitan areas of our country we really are one big melting pot of nationalities and ethnic groups. You should see where I work... it's looks like the lobby of the United Nations.:eek:
    Jacksonville actually receives good marks for taking in immigrants and getting them acclimated to living in the Deep South... such as that is.
     
  7. Midnattblod

    Midnattblod Ranger of Shadow

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    I would say, instead of an all out war against ISIS, most if not all countries should work on building defenses to prevent the spread, while at the same time, creating a semi small task force amongst multiple countries to try and subdue said group, and others like it.
     
  8. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    Agreed with @Sparrow if we're going to do it we need to go all in or don't go in at all. The only way to defeat a fanatical, guerrilla based enemy is to either obliterate them, society and all, or scare the ever loving crap out of their leadership. A successful bluff works, but I don't think these guys are gonna buy it. In Cato the Elder's favorite phrase, "Delenda est Carthago ISIS"
     
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  9. RayCaptain

    RayCaptain 如朱

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    The world may truly be at her end. I agree with you Sparrow. A total annihilation is required for the likes of this enemy. The West has participated in what I like to call "Playing War" since the start of the Cold War. Measured, tit-for-tat responses, meanwhile, the body count climbs higher every day.

    Delenda est ISIS it is.
     
  10. GrimWarlock

    GrimWarlock Daemon Prince of Tzeentch

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    Right now in the middle east there is a modern version of a nazi empire thanks to islam. What do nazis to with people like us, and what do we do with them? The answer to this question is the answer to the one asked in the thread.
     
  11. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    All out war has problems.

    You see the bigger war becomes the more innocents get drawn into it; and the more of them who get killed the more you build up resistance to the war. Both internally within your own country and even more so within the target country you're attacking.

    This sparks problems when you're clearly the "bigger" aggressor and actually helps niche extremist groups significantly because it gives them an ever increasing pool of directly or indirectly harmed people from which to swell their ranks. So suddenly what was a minor faction grows in size to get bigger and bigger.


    All out invasion also is unlikely to be the answer - heck in many of these cases its what's sparked these battles from local tribes into international affairs because western invading countries carved up established boarders into their own. Shifting blame for those boarders from locals into the international community. So suddenly not only have you still got internal, if not increased internal strife within these countries; but you've now also got a significant portion of it directed at the one-time invaders and masters from the west.

    It's a complicated affair - yes its very easy to say invade and smash in but eh sometimes subtle is superior.
     
  12. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    There is no subtle way to deal with religious fanatics who're two centuries behind the rest of the world. You kill them and keep killing them no matter how large their ranks swell. They have declared war on us, we should take them up on it.

    I recently watched a documentary on what we did to Japan in the closing weeks of WWII... it was quite eye-opening, including the second atomic bomb, dropped on Nagasaki. Nagasaki was vaporized because the primary target, an industrial city to the north, had a bank of clouds moving through and the bomber crew couldn't see the target well enough. Think about that and the randomness of war, if not for a cloudy morning the people of Nagasaki would have survived the war.

    It's a drastic form of Darwinian Evolution, some cultures become decadent and obsolete and should be trampled under foot... someday our turn will come.
    Neca eos omnes, Deus suos agnoscet... kill them all, and let God sort them out.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2015
  13. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    But Sparrow when your own actions cause the swelling of the ranks of your "enemy" you have to ask yourself if you are taking the right course of action. Because if you do that will knowledge that your actions will cause an increase in your opposing forces you have to consider that your actions are the ones in the greater wrong because you're starting to feed that which you're trying to change.


    There is also fair debate (although its impossible to answer) that the bombs dropped upon Japan were not needed. That Japan would have withdrawn of its own accord - or that even just one bomb was "needed". War involves a lot of revenge elements even at national levels
    Of course there is also counter debate that by using the bombs two targets were destroyed and many killed; but that as a result no ground invasion was needed and thus many more were potentially saved on both sides.
    That said its all theoretical
     
  14. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    Letting them run rampant is not an option. The more that appear the more that must be eliminated, eventually they will either give up or they'll all be dead. You make a point about internal strife though, modern citizens don't have the stomach for either extended or total wars which may be necessary in this situation.
     
  15. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    When you find yourself at war you don't ask such questions, as to what effect the resulting brutality has on your enemy. You snuff them out until they capitulate and surrender. Any reasonable person knows fanatical Islam is destined for the trash heap of history. We failed in Iraq and then again in Afghanistan because we fought a war by half, for a television audience that demands war have limits and be conducted with a facade of honor. You don't treat ISIS as human beings, they're animals who must be killed.

    I would make this war (American Civil War) as severe as possible, and show no symptoms of tiring till the South begs for mercy. - William Tecumseh Sherman
     
  16. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    When one is at war one must ask those questions. Because if by your actions you make the war worse; if by them you increase your enemies then by default you're not winning the war, your losing in a big way. Because yes you're killing - but each time you're only bolstering your opposition to your actions both internally and within the ranks of your opponents.

    So no all out war isn't going to win it; sure it will kill loads and you'll get a lot of blood to show and yeah you've had an eye for an eye - but you've really not won in the end. In fact in many of these countries it was war from the west that started and now exacerbated the problems - especially with trade and new technology.

    This is a new kind of war for the USA and its one they can't win by storming in guns blazing; nor is it one that Hollywood can win for them by making them wish to have the American Dream (indeed one can argue that a part of the recruitment is a direct opposition to the American Dream concept - a defence to protect their own identity and culture within a world rapidly filling with people and losing individuality and variety*.




    *IS there a country in the world, barring N.Korea, where you can't get Coca cola?
     
  17. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    What is your solution then?
     
  18. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Well now, like I said, I don't have the solution, but I do have the view that all out massacre war isn't the solution.

    Although if pressed I'd say the way to win this war is more through media and social action than through military alone. The key to these extremist groups is recruitment; if you can shut-down recruitment you reduce the number of combatants on their side which instantly means that any military action you do take will have increased effect.

    So the best way to beat this is to build bridges on that front; because the stronger the bridges you build there the less anti-western feeling you have within the population. Essentially its a war you can win by building hospitals and schools - but not imperialistic direct, instead supporting local businesses to establish those facilities.

    Of course many of these extremist groups know this, that's why they often target schools and such; however what they are going for is a fear tactic. To make people afraid of the change, however if one continues to promote positive social change the extremists have a much harder fight when all they offer is suffering and war.


    Of course any scheme like this has to, indeed must tie into the local populations religious and social values as much as possible; one has to bring change whilst keeping tradition so the "westernisation" or "modernization" effect is muted; otherwise extremists latch onto the slogan of "returning to their history (of course always citing their glory days".


    So instead of fighting the extremists at large you work on winning over the population coupled with raids and strikes at extremists which aim to cut their numbers whilst keeping own and civilian casualties to a minimum; the latter part is key - all out mass scale war always hits a lot of civilians and quickly loses you the populations support.
     
  19. Dreamscaper

    Dreamscaper Royal Hamster Wrangler

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    Sounds good in theory, the second question is: has it worked before? The only examples of where we have attempted to defeat a guerilla enemy in such a fashion I can think of we failed miserably.
     
  20. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Well for one,western countries should stop arming rebels against the Syrian government and instead help them fight against these barbarians.Second,Russia could give the Syrian Army new tanks and vehicles for urban warfare like T-90SM and BMP-Ts and BMP-3s and MRAP vehicles so they can regain ground easily and focus on besieging Raqqah,the capital of this "caliphate".
    The Iraqi Army and the Kurds in Iraq are gathering for a big attack on Mosul which is the barbarians' second biggest city.Peshmerga has proven to be the best force in the area when fighting these jihadis.