What Don't You Like About ASoIaF?

Discussion in 'A Song of Ice and Fire' started by Liadan, Aug 19, 2006.

  1. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    You know what, I think I may be with you on that one. I think I remember seeing that you haven't read AFFC so I don't want to say anything but man - I hope some of the rumors we hear about Davos in the fourth book are actually true.
     
  2. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    He's not dead, anyway - GRRM has stated that he'll be a PoV char in ADWD, I believe.
     
  3. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    Maybe he'll be a character in ADWD for a limited time. Ahem.
     
  4. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    GRRM DID say he would be killing lots of people. :D
     
  5. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    Hopefully the Sister ****er will go in that category (not that I care personally...just to annoy the Sister ****er fans) =]
     
  6. Arya

    Arya New Member

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    Well, I'm not sure that I would call myself a "fan" of Jaime per se, but if I had to choose between him and his filthy w****e of a sister, I'll choose him.

    At least he's somewhat entertaining. Cersei has about as much humor as a dead fish, and can't see past the length of her nose!
     
  7. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    That's because Jaime's too busy bouncing her on his little friend, that she doesn't have time to laugh or see anything :O
     
  8. Arya

    Arya New Member

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    Is the incest the only reason everyone hates Jaime so much? What of the Targaryens, they married brother to sister.
     
  9. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    Jaime wasn't even anywhere near Cersei for about 3/4 of the series thus far.
     
  10. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    Nah...he also threw a kid out of the window.
     
  11. Arya

    Arya New Member

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    True, he did. Yes, that was horrible. However, think about the "why" of it though. I can empathize with his character a little, I guess.

    He's in love with Cersei. It's not just being horny and getting your rocks off, he LOVES her. And she him.

    So, they're in love, but it's wrong - it's a forbidden union, and their children are usurpers to the crown. Had Bran reported what he had seen, they would have lost the throne.

    It was a horrible thing that he did, but there are reasons why he did it, protecting his own family first and foremost of those.

    By empathizing, I'm not saying that I would do the same thing, you understand. My brother isn't even remotely attractive. (KIDDING!). In all seriousness though, there's action and consequence and Jaime sought to prevent the ruin of his family by acting as he did.

    Would you stop at anything to protect those closest to you?
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2006
  12. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    Yes. There is a limit to what I would do.

    Throwing an innocent child out of the window because you are at fault is no excuse. You shouldn't be humping your sister who is married to the king, and then throw a kid who saw you doing so out of the window. That's just wrong. End of story. What kind of person throws a child out of the window because he was caught doing something he shouldn't be.
     
  13. Arya

    Arya New Member

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    Right, I didn't say it was right, or an okay thing to do. But I think you will find that nothing is black and white in George Martin's world, and right or wrong depends on whose side your standing on.

    Jaime and Cersei have chosen to live as they do. Quit putting all the blame on Jaime for his relations with Cersei. I don't recall her pushing him away or telling him not to.

    So, they chose their life. They chose to have a relationship WITH EACH OTHER, and to bear the children that came of that union, and see them succeed the throne.

    Jaime protected his "wife" and children by doing what he did.

    You say "what he shouldn't have been doing", yet make no claim against the Targaryens for doing exactly the same thing.

    This is a book, and it's a book set in a different world, and your own personal morals and values are not applicable when it comes to passing judgement on the characters.
     
  14. Petyr

    Petyr New Member

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    I am not defending Jaime for throwing little Bran out the window. At the time when I first read it I was pretty upset about it, Bran was such a promising character. By that one act, however, look what Martain showed us: The devotion and love between Jaime and Cersei (not saying it's right just saying it is there). The depth of devotion and motherly instinct to protect by Catelyn. The strong will of Bran. The dedication to duty that Ned pocesses (he still goes to be the Hand when his son is laying near death).
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2006
  15. K'shar

    K'shar Darth Pumpkin

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    My own morals. bah screw all of you goddamn jaime defenders. He pushed a child out a window. END OF STORY. He's still a rat bastard.
     
  16. Arya

    Arya New Member

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    Yep, but no more so than a lot of people in the series. Namely his sister.
     
  17. K'shar

    K'shar Darth Pumpkin

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    I loathe his sister. I hate Gregor. I hate all the Islandhoppers. Every Lannister outside of Tyrion. The Tully's outside of Blackfish suck. Sansa sucks.
    The only "bad" guys I like are Bronn and Sandor. and I almost like Littlestinker but not quite.
     
  18. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    Taking aside the fact that Cersei is his sister. He's also ****ing some other guy's wife (not that the King is much better). Which again makes him an arsehole...if we put aside the whole incest thing.

    Personal morals applicable in a book. People are people, being in a book doesn't make a human different in concept. The people are written by a living man, the livings man's writings are influenced by what he thinks. What he thinks is influenced by various experiences and what not. His own morals being part of it. Hence his morals are put into the characters. However indirectly they may be, they are there. Hence our personal morals can be applied.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2006
  19. Arya

    Arya New Member

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    I quite disagree.

    That's what makes a great fiction writer - the ability to write about absolutely anything at all, whether you personality believe in it or agree with it, or not. If you're filling your "fiction" with all of your own thoughts, morals, ethics and ideals then you're writing a biographical novel.

    Therefore, when it comes to characters in books, and judging the characters for their actions, I don't judge them based on my personal morals, rather I step into their shoes for a second, and the world that they live in.

    In ASOIAFland, incest is common. We see it represented right throughout the Targaryen line, and here with Jaime and Cersei. If you're going to condemn them for incest, then you have to also standard against House Targaryen, or you're being inconsistent.

    If you then stand against House Targaryen, then there's no point condemning Jaime for being a Kingslayer either - so those to count each other out. After all, why condemn the man who killed your enemy, so to speak.

    On the count of infidelity, and dare I say treason - do you then consider Cersei blameless? I see you are very quick to lay the blame at Jaime's feet all the time for their union, but what of her own actions and willingness to lie with him, despite being married?

    As for Robert, he'd stick it in anything that moved, and if it didn't move - he'd push it. Not to mention he was a drunken sod that beat her, raped her, and treated her cruelly. If it wasn't her brother, but some gallant knight offering her the protection of his arms you'd be cheering him on. Or did you think Lancelot an arsehole too?

    The reason for secrecy of the incest if it's so common? Three illegitimate heirs to the iron throne. Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. If word got out that these children are not in fact Baratheons, but are Lannisters, anarchy ensues. Nobody cares how royalty choose to amuse themselves in private - but they do care that the King is a rightful one. The common folk would never consent to a bastard reigning over them, let alone the other nobles.

    Jaime did what he did to protect his love, and his children. It was a cruel, horrible, despicable thing for him to do, you'll get no dispute from me there. Before deciding I hate a character though - I like to find the good in them first.

    Jaime has an unusual lifestyle, to say the least of him, but he's not entirely without honor either. After Storm of Swords I liked him a lot more than I did.

    I think you will get a much better understanding of him as you read more.
     
  20. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    Actually, I do think Lancelot is an arsehole, but we'll put that aside.

    If a writer doesn't write what he thinks, then where does he get his ideas from? Obviously he's getting them from his brain, which means he get's them from his thoughts, since he's thinking what's he's writing about.. . The author may not create a character on his own morals, but ofc morals can be adapted to make unique characters.

    Maybe I should not have said, "his" morals. Rather perhaps he is taking in what he sees in others, and applying them. There is bound to be someone in reality who shares the same morals as those that are in his book.

    Therefore one is able to subject their own morals when judging a character. How would you judge a friend? Based on their attitude and behaviour right? Which is based on how they feel, and morals become a part of that.

    This is irrespective when judging on whether you like them or not. You compare your own morals/feelings to that of the characters, so you know how you feel about them. Hence your personal morals can be applied.

    Now. Personally, I find that I would never ever throw an innocent child out of the window just because you were caught doing something you shouldn't have/ are embrassed about. His actions clearly show that he knew what he was doing was wrong to some degree, otherwise why else would you fling a kid of the window? In performing this act I feel he has given up the right to be even called a man, because it's just wrong (I don't know how you feel about throwing little kids of windows).

    Moreover, it doesn't matter how good he is after the incident, the fact that he would throw a child of the window, even though it is completely innocent just shows you what type of person he is. Why should another family have to suffer because of your own damn problems? What kind of person makes another family distraught over their child? Do real good men do this? This is why I dislike him. Sure every one does bad, but you have to draw the line somewhere when forgiving some. Mine is at "Flinging little kids of the window".

    Also...I don't particularly care for Robert. I never said he was a good guy anyway. Yea, and I'm aware incest seems to be a big thing in ASoIaF, but we're talking about 1 specific guy. I don't give a flying **** about the others :p

    P.S. I'll probably edit this several times to correct anything that obviously I mistyped due to being too excited or something :S
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2006