Weapons and Warfare book.

Discussion in 'General Books' started by Elvenblademaster, Jan 1, 2004.

  1. DohHunter

    DohHunter Community Defender

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2003
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    lol bow material secrets.

    They used injection molded rubber for all the bows........and they had a draw weight of about 15 lbs.....i've tried one of the prop bows.

    Sure they could fire an arrow.........about 20 yards.

    And all the arrows (and spears for that matter) were made with rubber molded heads as well, painted to look like metal............except for a few display models for the LOTR exhibit....where the tips were cast out of ship metal and plated.
     
  2. Sabishii

    Sabishii Sindarin

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    It's not "false" info, blademaster - it's info the author fabricates so all the pieces of the book are consistent... I don't remember reading anything that was *contradictory* to Tolkien's writings.
    As for the crazy draw weight... The archers were ELVES. And 7-foot Men of legend!
    You might as well ask why there's Elven magic or how Elwing turned into a sea-bird.
     
  3. Aramir

    Aramir Ranger of the North

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2003
    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    she used the magic of camera wizardy of course Sabishii :p
     
  4. Gûd Daedheloth

    Gûd Daedheloth Foe of Morgoth's Realm

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    1,222
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Midwest USA
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Considering that the book was written before some of the cuts to the movies (houses of healing and such) I don't see what the deal is. And besides, the huorns were in the theatrical version, and Morgoth was also mentioned in the theatrical version.

    And NCO Mos, remember to always check your "facts" and never go with your assumptions before you go off on someone.
     
  5. NCO MOS18B

    NCO MOS18B Better than you.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2003
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    :rolleyes: Who cares? I still don't like him.
     
  6. Gûd Daedheloth

    Gûd Daedheloth Foe of Morgoth's Realm

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    1,222
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Midwest USA
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0
    Yeah, it's fine if you don't. I was just saying that it's a good lesson, for everyone, including me.
     
  7. Elladan

    Elladan Son of Elrond

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2003
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Imaldris
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I don't see how the book takes away from the magic and fantasy of LOTR. There are many mentions of spells, magicks, and otherworldly powers. The inscription on Glamdring's hilt, for example, is referred to as a 'strengthening spell'.

    It's an analytical look at a world where the mystical is accepted as fact, and is treated as such. It's exactly like a military history of, say, World War I, only instead of tanks and biplanes you have Balrogs and Nazgul. :D
     
  8. northsuperior

    northsuperior New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2003
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    hmm the book is good and bad, shoody editing , thou , example :the narsil explanation, quoted on one page to be forged for elendil when he "became king" and the next page saying it was forged by telcar long before
    dumb assed editing !!!
    and hadrafang, i was always extremely miffed by giving that blade a history bound up with idril celebrindal in Gondolin.
    i could see the tolkien estate getting very upset at that!!! and for good reason.
    a double no no
    1 one giving it a made up complex history , leave it alone...UNLESS IT ALREADY HAS ONE MADE UP BY THE GOOD PROFESSOR HIMSELF.
    2 binding that history up out of the context of the LOTR.
    as ive said that could make the estate of tolkein very upset and rightly so

    cause there was no such history, ever
    make something up like it was made in rivendell or even Eregion, better yet like many of the blades say nothing.
    Now you have all sorts of people reading the silmarilliion, and then asking where the reference to idril sword is ,
    i dont think there is anything wrong is changing stuff a bit within the context of the LOTR, or just plain adding in "tidbits", but arwens sword goes too far,
    the next thing youll hear is that haldirs sword was weilded by Feanor himself ,and forged by Aule
    boo...
    dumb.....
    OK ive ranted
     
  9. Haldir

    Haldir Archer Extraordinaire

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I didn't mean bow material secrets exactly. I guess I was more thinking of filming secrets. Rival film companies like to keep thier techniques to themselves, in certain aspects anyhow.

    How did you get to try a prop bow? Lucky...

    I'm sure they could fire an arrow but in all fairness if I make a bow out of a small tree branch it'll fire an arrow also. Not very far but it'll do it. I'm sure a lot of people have done it when they were kids.


    Personally haven't found anything wrong in the book, yet. I've not read it very carefully and in fact I've just jumped through the book really looking at certain things.
     
  10. Sabishii

    Sabishii Sindarin

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    But that's what was etched onto the original Hadhafang movie prop and the UC replica, not something the author made up.
     
  11. DohHunter

    DohHunter Community Defender

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2003
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    At the TTT exhibit in Toronto last year.

    But you gotta love the pictures in the book anyhow :)
     
  12. Nathan

    Nathan Wielder of the Flame

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I noticed at the beginning of the book there's a disclaimer that says it's a guide for the movies and is published with the permission, but not approval, of the Tolkein Estate. I found that almost amusing.
     
  13. Wisconsin

    Wisconsin Art House Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,101
    Likes Received:
    137
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +137 / 0 / -0
    I got it today and love it, you guys might not, but I think its an excellent book.
     
  14. gandalf101

    gandalf101 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2003
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Well, I have not acquired the book as of yet, so take my comments for what they are worth.

    Also, someone mentioned that the Ithilien ranger's bows have a draw weight of about 150 lbs?
    Actually, thats not historically inaccurate. From what I know, experienced English longbowmen actually used bows up to 150lbs draw weight and on, depending on the archer, (correct me if i'm wrong). That may very well be what the author is basing that on, since those bows are based closely on English long bows.

    And, if i'm not mistaken, someone made a comment of Legolas being an elf, accounting for his strength to use a bow of 200lbs draw. Actually, elves are physically WEAKER than men, not stronger (weaker in the sense that Gil-galad can't bench press as much as Elendil ;) not combat ability, or resistance to sickness etc.) . Tolkien wrote this in Unfinished Tales, if i remember correctly. But that raises another question, is this a fault of Weapons and Warfare, or is Legolas a particularly strong elf in the film?
     
  15. Sabishii

    Sabishii Sindarin

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    Are they weaker, really? Interesting... Can you post the reference? I'd love to read it.

    Besides that, though, how would you know how strong a Tolkien Man is? They could be "uber" strong for all we know (the Numenoreans were, at least).
    This is a Fantasy book and a Fantasy movie; so suspend your disbelief, people. ;)
     
  16. gandalf101

    gandalf101 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2003
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Hmm, i quickly glanced through Narn I Hin Hurin in Unfinished Tales and all i came up with was this: "...and then they fought together with swift blades. But Turin had been long in a hard school, and had grown as agile as any elf, but was stronger."
    That supports what I said, though it certainly doesn't thoroughly justify it, as Turin was a strong man.

    Also, this is from an early version of the Silmarilion:
    "[Hador's] folk were yellow haired and blue-eyed for the most part... They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves..." Once again, this supports, yet does not confirm my statement, as it was found in an early version of the Silmarillion, not the final one.

    I'll continue to look for where i saw this.

    Does anyone remember where this is specified? i could've sworn it was in Narn I Hin Hurin.

    Anyway, my point is that Legolas being an elf does not account for a 200lbs draw weight.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2004
  17. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    6,311
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0
    Thankyou Gandalf101. For whoever it was that said they have found nothing wrong with the WW book so far, what are you judging wrong according to, JRRT or PJ, anyway whoever you pick the WWbook still contradicts itself and gives FALSE INFORMATION.
    Somone a while back said that the author of the wwbook did not give false in, he just fabricated it, here is the websters dictionary meaning of fabricate, "to make up for the purpose of deception" yep I guess your right he did'nt make up false info, he just ,,,,,,made up deceptive info, not false, but wait isn't false deceptive no way. Here is where the WWbook controdicts the movie since you all have been basing your argument on the fact that it goes with the movie, it says that sam became the greatest hobbit to ever live when he gave the ring back to frodo and that no other person alive could have done it, well that right there is wrong according to JRRT, but the movie specificly shows who handing back the ring, Gandalf and boromir.Now the wrong according to Tolkien, the WWbook says that there is no record of Legolas ever using just one knife and that therefore we can assume he was ambidextrious, Legolas only had one knife in the LOTR books plus I do not beleive there were any elves that were stronger than men and when I say men I mean real men, not lesser men, the only elf who ever comes close is Beleg cuthalion but even he was overpowered by Turin. As for the engkish longbows that someone said were 150lbs, Ok first of all does anyone understand what poundage in bows mean? If you have a bow with a 150lbs draw that means that you are literaly pulling back 150 pounds with just your left arm to brace it and your right to draw,can you imagine lifting the equal to 7 and a half 20 pound bags of dog food with out using your legs and back to lift, or think of it this way can you lift your self with only one arm.The english longbows may have been close to a hundred pounds but man you have to be STRONG to hold a 150lbs and then steady it and aim, hahahaha. IN defense of the WWbook no where does it say that Narsil was forged for Elendil as some one said before. There is much more and I can go on and on, if fact if anyone would like to here it feel free to pm.
     
  18. Haldir

    Haldir Archer Extraordinaire

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Well I never said that English Longbow's were 150lbs but I know from watching documentaries that Roman bows were over 120lbs.

    And I know well what draw weight means. I've been doing and coaching archery for over 8 years.

    I doubt I could pull that sort of poundage but it's possible to do with training. You can be trained to do so. Just like drawing an 80# compound. You may not have the full weight when you've fully drawn it but you've got the full weight when you begin to draw it.

    This is fantasy after all. Relax a bit. I'm sure there are contradictions. It is only the first edition of it. There may be newer editions over the years with corrections etc. Maybe there wont be.

    Maybe you'll write a version based on the book and then we can have a big fight, eh elvenblademaster? :)

    As I said it is fantasy. It's not meant to be that believable. Where he got he poundages from I have absolutely no idea. He must've got them from somewhere. I'd be very interested to know where. I agree that it would be quite a feat to draw a bow like that.
     
  19. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    6,311
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0
    I think I nearly have right here, but that is a good idea, what really made me not so mad at the WWbook is that in the front is says published with the permission but not approval of the Tolkien estate, I guess Christopher is on my side. But the onlt other thing with the book that upset me is that for all the pictures it does give, it does not give a picture of haldirs sword, and its my favorite, we get a drwaing of it but no pic. And does not show some arrow tips and there is no picture of Aragorns bow either, nor a very good pic of Aiglos either, and only one metion of ents . So I hope there is another edition. :dmonkey: :gbounce:
     
  20. gandalf101

    gandalf101 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2003
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Picture of aiglos you say? I have yet to see a REAL picture of aiglos! I've been dying for one! If someone could post a picture, even if its not great, i will forever be in your debt and remain your trusty servant till the end of time. Okay, not really, but i'd appreciate very, very much.