war on terror

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by curunir's bane, Mar 11, 2004.

  1. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Just heard on the news that the Taliban executed 10 or 11 Christians.I think they were all doctors.

    The problem is that even if the Americans and the other Western Allies leave Afghanistan...well Afghanistan will collapse of course,then the Taliban and all these fanatics will declare it a victory and that will make them get more recruits.For some reason Western Pakistan seems like a place were the Taliban can recruit almost endless amounts of people.
     
  2. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Look, if any of our countries were attacked, we'd be baying for blood and revenge too. But Afghanistan is unconquerable. If the might of the Russian army couldn't do it, why would another superpower be able to? The war on terror has taken a bad pre-war situation and made it a thousand times worse.

    Now if they continue over there, they can't win, and if they leave, the country will surrender to Taliban rule in quick time, and nothing will have changed for the better, but it will instead prove to be a rallying cry for Islamists. Previously "sitting on the fence" people could be inspired to take up arms against the defeated western infidels.

    Sigh. Humans are just nasty nasty creatures who don't learn from history.
     
  3. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    And again....this is what awaits the women of Afghanistan once the coalition forces leave and the Taliban resume control. And again, the adulterous male has no consequences whatsoever. Isn't it funny how that works whenever men seize control of a community?

    So we're damned if we stay (untenable) and damned if we go (all that work for nothing).
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2010
  4. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    It seems that America is a bit indecisive as to whether they can win a long-time guerilla war or not.And generally help their allies win a war and I am talking about the latest big wars:

    Cuba-The entire "support" for the anti-communist Cuban exiles was a fiasco.They lost at the Bay of Pigs and they did nothing to help the Cuban exiles significantly to regain power.

    Vietnam-The war that started it all,the war that USA could have won but due to political reasons and all these "pacificists" who were undermining the war effort from inside their own country,the Americans slowly pulled out and what happened?Vietnam fell to the communists.
    And then Cambodia fell.And other countries.

    The first war with Iraq was a kind of fiasco because they let Saddam stay in power and they let the Kurds and the Sunnis down and they were massacred and thousands of them died by Saddam's forces.

    Afghanistan-What the heck is going on?Are they gonna pull from there as well?Shouldn't they have finished the war in 3-4 years?It's 2010 and they are still fighting the Taliban for crying out loud!

    Iraq-Iraq may be a bit safer than it used to be,but it's still not safe or strong enough to defend itself against internal or external enemies.

    So what the heck are the Americans doing,they just go to a war to support a country and then slowly bleed for the next 10-15 years and then they decide to pull the troops out of that country and they lose the war?Do all these soldiers die in vain?And what about the ones who get back?What can they say?

    "I did my best to protect those people from terrorism and now the government decided to pull the troops out and the country has been destroyed again"?

    What's the point of spending millions upon millions of dollars,wasting thousands of lives and then achieving nothing?

     
  5. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    For non-cricketing countries, the presenter in this 25 minute video is Imran Khan, a famous and talented Pakistani cricketer from the 80's. It talks to Pakistanis about how they view the west. You may disagree with some or all of it, but it's always good to know what "the other side" thinks of you during any form of conflict.


    The last 5-10 minutes is the most interesting for me. Eg 21 minutes in, interesting analysis of Pakistan's own failings that have lead to the rise of anti-western sentiment. And saying how even Muslims who don't like Taliban rule will still go to fight the allied forces as they see it as a war on Islam in general.

    I found it quite interesting.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
  6. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Thanks for sharing, Mub. That was most enlightening.

    I suppose it surfaces a dangerous combination of fear and a feeling of complete and utter lack of control over the fate of your life and society, fueled by a neglect of education by the gouvernment. That is a very dangerous combination, that...
     
  7. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    What a ****head. Seriously. Poking the hornet's nest, what a brilliant idea!!!

    "If you attack us, we will attack you"?!?!?!? That's what is already happening you ****wit. I don't think the violent extremists need any more propoganda material, this is just gift wrapping them a reason to feel vindicated about hating Christianity and America. "You see? America DOES hate Islam! They can't deny it now, they just burned our holy text!"

    Man idiots like this make me angry. No matter how dumb you are, any moron should clearly draw a conclusion that doing this will only fan the flames of hatred, on both sides, not cool things down. But perhaps that's his point for doing this. Perhaps there are people like this pastor who DO want a new Crusade like Islamic extremists accuse the west of undertaking.
     
  8. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Yeah, freedom of religion sucks...

    I suspect that the minister in question is very stupid. It seems that his world devides in two parts; him and the rest of the world. And (his) God teams up with the first part. That way, he can do anything.

    He might think he's very smart. Burning books might lead to escalation of violence in Afghanistan and possibly in Iraq and other places, resulting in the US not being able to keep track of their promises.

    Either way, he's a [starstarstarstar] in my book. Buuuuut. Freedom of expression and religion :(
     
  9. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes, such is the downside of freedom of expression. This guy is free to do something that will lead to more deaths of westerners. And when that happens, he will not think of it as his fault in any way, he will simply say "I was right."

    Kind of like saying "Bees are bad" then kicking over their hive, getting stung and saying "See? Bees are bad!"
     
  10. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    So Pastor Foolhardy has backed down, for now, because he thinks the proposed "9/11 mosque" (that is 2 blocks away from the Twin Towers sight, may I remind everyone) has been moved.

    Interesting quote from the planner for the proposed mosque :

     
  11. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Clicky

    Am I the only one who is extremely disappointed by the development of this story?
     
  12. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    The whole issue is ott and smacks of hypocrisy. Christians are persecuted in many Muslim nations, worshippers killed, churches burnt to the ground, bibles forbidden (& no doubt burnt on occasion)...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Current_situation_.281989_to_present.29

    Frankly who gives a #### whether some crackpot preacher burns the Koran, reasonable people understand that he's just a wacko. He's not going around killing Muslims. Perhaps those countries so stridently decrying the US should examine the actions of their own citizens and their policies for religious (in)tolerance.
     
  13. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    errr.

    It's a taboo, This is why Ahmedinejad denies the holocaust. It's where it hurts the most.
     
  14. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    I'm not disputing it's taboo, I'm suggesting that reasonable people can tell the difference between the actions of an individual and that of an entire state. It's an excuse by some to vent against the US whilst ignoring their own prejudices, violence and intolerance.
     
  15. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Did you guys see the Afghans on the news protesting and burning American flags in Kabul and other places in Afghanistan?Well I guess "reconstruction" didn't work for them...
     
  16. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes, but it's not "reasonable people" who are going to use this as propaganda to prove that the west is on a crusade against Islam. It's not "reasonable people" who will be radicalised and will kill westerners.
    And yes, it sucks that you have to consider these extremist nut jobs, but it's a fact of modern life.

    Seriously, Islamic extremists couldn't buy anti-American publicity like this. If they paid the world's top advertising agencies they probably wouldn't do as good a job making muslims hate America than this idiot American. I wonder if he actually is a Christian extremist who literally wants Christianity to pursue a new crusade
     
  17. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Which pretty much brings us round full circle ~ if the moderates/leaders in the Islamic world cannot (or will not) instill a sense of perspective then they collectively represent a risk to other countries and faiths. Why should others have to pussyfoot around them and integrate with them in our communities if that sense of responsibility / tolerance is not mirrored in theirs?

    At some point someone needs to draw a line. I'm not suggesting that line is burning the Koran, that's just stupid and provocative, but tolerance is a two way street.

    "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." ~ Winston Churchill
     
  18. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I'm afraid I lost you there....

    Because their religious leaders (which leaders specifically? domestic?) can't put things in perspective, "they" (who? muslims? Arabs? muslim US citizens?) are a danger to other countries and religions (I am not entirely aware of the latter...).

    I don't agree about the second part either. It is very hard, if at all possible, to demand any chosen value from another culture or superimpose one onto them. Of course, it makes for easy rethoric - but I don't believe it holds any value. Also, if one concludes that we can let go of our values, simply because the opposing faction doesn't either means that the opposing faction is actually succeeding in what you are failing at.

    Right.

    So what are you going to do to gain more acceptance or respect from the Muslim community or society as a whole? By pointing out that they're doing it all wrong? Fat lot of good that'll do ^^
     
  19. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    I don't see what's hard to understand? If Islamic leaders do nothing about extreme behaviour, demonstrations, the persecution of other faiths they are endorsing them. By endorsing extreme behaviour they represent a threat to others.

    We've seen in the UK (7/7 attacks, British Muslims fighting abroad) how poisonous extreme Imans' rhetoric can be. If the Muslim community / the moderates cannot police it themselves they should expect restrictions on the practice of their faith or at least who can preach it.

    What am I going to do personally? What I've always done about it. Have healthy debate, most people I know of all faiths/cultures are happy with a 'live and let live' stance, and are happy to throw the judicial book at anyone who can't/won't or incites religious hatred. Yourself?
     
  20. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    The US endorses the regime in Israel, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Iraq and Afghanistan and it had at least some degree of involvement in the forming of the regimes of all other dictatorships there, except for Libia and Iran. There's nothing subtle about those regimes. Yet, most choose to turn a blind eye to those facts.


    Regardless, you didn't specify whether we are talking about domestic or foreign Muslims and who you expect these religious leaders to be - I'm still a bit fuzzy about that.

    Total BS, and that's even leaving freedom of religion aside. No one can control the Phelpses in their opinion. Will you hold the Pope accountable? Islam is not like the Church of Englangd, from which dissidents can be expelled.

    I live next to a mosque. Although I don't know the Imam, I do know a few people who pray there. On occasion, I drink a cuppa there.I have been able to hold interesting discussions with colleagues who emigrated from the Middle East - Muslims, Jews and even an Arabic Christian. In the past, I have lived - with pleasure - in a neighbourhood which has a Muslim majority.

    I am also an active member of a political party which tries to oppose the current movement of polarisation. In that position, I have participated in and organised discussions, also concerning affiliated problems. Of course, I understand that I am not going to change the world - but I try to make my opinion heared.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2010