Valinor, Undying lands? HELP

Discussion in 'J.R.R. Tolkien / Lord of the Rings' started by Beregrond, Jan 5, 2004.

  1. Beregrond

    Beregrond New Member

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    Probably sounds like a stupid question, but my friend and I, got in an argument over this. When Frodo sails from the Grey Havens to Valinor, is that him actually dying, or is that him actually sailing to the undying lands. In the Movie Return of the King Gandalf describes what its like to die to Pippen, and he describes it almost word for word as Tolkine describes what Frodo see's at the end of Return of the King(book). But I think its in the Silmarillion(pg.?) that few mortals are allowed, save by choice of the Valar to enter valinor, and even though they are in the undying lands, they must remain Mortal. Any insight would help alot.
     
  2. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    Frodo wasn't dying when he left for Valinor. While he had been grieviously injured in the past, those wounds were mostly healed but for lingering effects. Frodo could have stayed physically living in the Shire, but after the turmoil of bringing the ring to Mt. Doom., he couldn't emotionally readjust to his old life. His mind and body would fully heal in Valinor. He had earned his place there through being a ringbearer.

    True. PJ uses the words in the book to describe death. But in the books, it is only the description of Valinor. Since most people equate heaven with perfection, Valinor would be a good way to describe it.

    The mortals who are allowed to enter Valinor must remain mortal. The Valar cannot take away the gift (doom) that Illuvatar has given men. Which is freedom from the circles of Arda.
     
  3. LBenyamini

    LBenyamini New Member

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    and in case you're wondering...when mortals die, they have the honor and privilage to return to the soul of Illvutar(god). When elves die they are sent to the halls of mandos(one of the valar) till the end of time, because illvutar has not made clear their full purpose
     
  4. Suikohero

    Suikohero The Wanderer

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    i was wondering about that too.. thanks for clearing that up guys.
     
  5. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Well, according to UT, Frodo DIDN'T go to Valinor; that is reserved for the Elves (and of higher descend). According to UT Galadriel negotiated that Frodo (and Bilbo) could stay on an Island (I've forgotten the name of the Island) just in sight of the harbour of the West (Alqualondë?). Can't find the passage, though...

    Question is... Did he die on that Island or did he stay alive under the power of the undying lands? I think Iluvatar himselve would not have accepted that and even Manwë could not have tempered with this rule. Thus Frodo died, probably at a respectable age.
     
  6. matrix9217

    matrix9217 King of the Mark

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    Does anyone know what happened to Gimli after he went to Valinor?
     
  7. dwarf tosser

    dwarf tosser "What the Deuce?"

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    i dont think that gimlie was allowed but if anything since he eis a powerful elf prince friend then he could get in. Dont forget that Sam went to Valinor too. And maybe there are allready hobbits sin valinor because in FOTR book haldir says to frodo, " have not heard of Hobbits entering Middle-EArth before"

    -dt
     
  8. Meldawen

    Meldawen New Member

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    I think that Sam was allowed only because he too was a ring-bearer, even though for only a short time (when he thought Frodo was dead after Shelob), and that that was the criteria that allowed both Sam and Frodo to enter.
     
  9. mormegil

    mormegil Art House Member

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    well manwe was not permited to keep people from the gift of death, but that was mankind. i like to think that gimli, frodo, and bilbo lived forever in valinor. kind of like how earendil since he had elf blood was permited to stay in valinor perhaps since gimli, frodo, and bilbo dont have man blood in them they were given the same gift.