Vaccinations

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Mububban, Nov 28, 2012.

  1. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Here in Australia, there is a vocal minority who are against vaccinating their children. I think these people are dangerous gullible fools, but what do you think?

    This is a first world problem if ever there was one. Vaccination is in danger of becoming a victim of its own success. You simply can't campaign against vaccinations when your child contracts polio, or is born deaf from the measles. But because we just don't see these deaths or defects any more, some fools think they no longer pose a threat.

    Anti-vacc campaigners usually rail against "big pharma" making billions of dollars, and governments wanting to be Big Brother and control our lives. I think they are fools, dangerously lowering the immunity of the herd, and endangering lives.

    They also bang on about the link between the measles/mumps/rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism, which is based on this small 1998 study, which has since been retracted (this page links to just about everything :

    http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...-myth-that-vaccines-cause-autism-201101061067

    But of course even after you retract something, the retraction never gets the publicity of the original bogus publication.


    And don't get me started on using homeopathy as an alternative treatment....
     
  2. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Australian scientists have FINALLY made a concerted effort to debunk the common myths and have released a publication on vaccination and the science behind it. I can't attach the PDFs but the link is here:

    http://www.science.org.au/policy/immunisation.html

     
  3. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    It really annoys me how stupid these anti vaccination people are being. I think most of it is guided by mis-information to begin with and they are simply being selfish. How will these people feel when diseases that haven't been in this country for years suddenly spread again because some overly concerned and uneducated parents didn't fully understand vaccinations. It's pathetic and putting not only their kids but all the other children they come into contact with in danger.
     
  4. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    In the UK this bogus study caused a drop down to about 60% immunisation of MMR. You need in the mid-high 90% to have good coverage of the herd. And guess what? MMR is back in circulation in the UK! Top work losers!
     
  5. JNK

    JNK King of tards

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    these ppl are dumb... I was even writing couple articles about vaccines in hope that some dumbf..ks change their mind... in lithuanian, though sp no need to post the link
     
  6. Reece56364

    Reece56364 Guest

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    vaccinations should be compulsory. They arent exactly strict about them here, hence why i dont have any. (Got out of it at school).
     
  7. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Yeah, no. I agree wholeheartedly.

    The usual reasons to withhold children from vaccination are safety concerns and, sometimes, involve conspiracy theories. There is a small group in The Netherlands, though, who refuse their kids to be vaccinated on religious grounds. They have the constitutional right to do so, apparently and it's very interesting.

    They have done so ever since vaccination came into play around the 1900s or so, and a few small communities still keep that up. Basically, they say that God decides on who falls ill (and dies) and who doesn't. And that one is not to interfere in the will of God. This has led to several outbreaks within the community, most notably a few polio outbreaks.

    Whilst marginal, the group demonstrates what happens when people stop being vaccinated. These diseases are still quite real and dangerous. Vaccination lulls people into a certain confidence that diseases like such don't manifest themselves in the west anymore. Well, these people are - evidently - wrong :)

    I... won't :)
     
  8. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    I think there are people rabid about avoiding vaccines regardless of where you live and for many reasons. Over here there are a few that are worried about adjuvants and preservatives in the vaccines causing illnesses and I'm sure there's a few religious groups who have issues with them too. Apparently you can request an exemption from the school board on moral or medical grounds to avoid your kids getting them if you want to. Otherwise, certain vaccines are mandatory. If your kids don't have them you can't send them to school.

    What I don't understand is why people don't look at the statistics. The chances of having an adverse reaction to a vaccine are slim to none. A decision to vaccinate should always be based on a careful risk assessment and in the VAST majority of cases, the benefits FAR outweigh the risks. It is understandably awful when anybody has a problem with a vaccine but then people react adversely to all kinds of things. There are children over here who will die if they smell the breath of someone who has eaten peanut butter for goodness sake. Anything you do in life carries risk so why worry about the miniscule ones like a vaccine reaction when you're far more likely to die or have permanent deficits from a serious disease that could have been prevented? That philosophy makes no sense to me at all. As so many people have pointed out already: the public health risks are even bigger when a significant percentage of the population is unvaccinated.
     
  9. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    The problem is education. A vast number of people simply don't have much if any basic medical education (even if they made it through school it doesn't mean that they paid any attention or were even taught certain things). This creates a very big problem because even if you present evidence to them they are often process the information even at a basic level.

    This leaves them very open to someone else interpreting it for them and then telling them what to believe - creating a wonderful power vacuum for any media publication to jump into (be it small or large).


    The other problem is that of "BIG Companies". They are mysterious things and when they are putting Hypermegabolictantic Estragenius 3 into your children many people get scared. Yep we are back to the education again, but there is also an element of when things simply go to a point of trust.

    People don't trust big companies in general - the same can also be said at a more local level. For example many people are often found to trust older more matured doctors over much younger ones without any other factor other than age coming into it. Even if the younger doctor could be more qualified and more up to date the older ones tend to attract more trust.

    Big companies are the same - they are often not trusted and thus it doesn't take much to shake peoples very fickle trust in them (the government is also pretty much the same).



    The MMR jab also has another angle to it and that is the fact that many people who are opposed to the jab are only opposed to it in the combined form (which the paper was based upon). Many are quite open about the fact that if they were given the choice of their children having all 3 jabs individually then would be happy to but that they are not happy for the combined dose. The fact that governments have refused to give the 3 separate jab optional approach only ever lends more fuel to the fire of there being some link to autism or some other unknown/documented property of the combined jab over the 3 separate options.



    Maybe this is a "first world problem" but honestly I think it outlines a very big concern that is greater than just the vaccination jab acceptance and that is the basic concept of trust within the social structure of a large society. Because if that element is allowed to establish itself then it will, slowly, grow. It can grow pretty big when something like the recent bank and government financial disaster took place and sheds light on a major international level of corruption and poor choices. Add all those little and big events up and you've a big drop in peoples trust. Then when you ask them to trust injections being given to their children (one of the things many people can become very overly protective of) it can become a big issue.
     
  10. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    I agree but I think physicians and the medical system are partly to blame for this. I don't know how it is in other places in the world, but here they book you about 7 minutes for a doctor's appointment. The doctors get paid a set amount by the government for each patient they see and they have expenses to cover (office, electric, staff, equipment etc). In order to meet those expenses and make money they have to push through a lot of patients every day. 7 minutes is not exactly a lot of time to discuss a problem, do an exam and write out a prescription plus note records in a patient's chart. That's a HUGE problem because they don't always take the time to educate people on these matters and question them about their lifestyle or assess the risks and benefits of vaccination. They also don't spend time educating patients on why vaccines are a good idea and easing their fears on the risks involved. They just say: you need this and put up a scary poster in their waiting room.

    The other problem with this approach is that it creates the "god-like" doctor image. Doctor knows best and you should follow all advice your doctor gives you whether you agree with it or not. People are sick of that and they don't buy it anymore. They want to make informed decisions. With the internet out there "Dr. Google" is counselling people rather than trained professionals and that is quite frankly RIDICULOUS! Anybody can post anything on the net, whether the information is reliable or not.

     
  11. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Very good points... while I do agree that some of these people who have fears over their children getting vaccinated are just plain retarded, the flip side of the argument is that pharmaceutical companies are little better than drug pushers these days. We're overmedicated, becoming less responsive to antibiotics, and don't let our bodies heal properly... and sometimes, you just have to live with some pain.

    Last year when I was interviewed in the ER, before being wheeled in to have my appendix removed, I was asked what medications if any I was taking... I said I'm not taking any medications. The nurse said she couldn't remember the last time someone in their 40s wasn't on some med or another, usually two or three meds.

    After my appendix was removed and I was up in bed, they were going to hook me up to a morphine drip... they did this almost without asking my permission. At the time I assumed it was some antibiotics and was making sure it wasn't penicillin, which I have a mild reaction to, "no" she said, "it's morphine". I laughed out loud. I told her I was fine and other than a slight bit of tenderness I was in no pain at all.

    Imagine that, I would have had a morphine drip though I wasn't in any real pain!
     
  12. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Over-medication has been around for a long while now, my Grandmonther's generation were apparently very heavily exposed to a lot of post-war pills where the idea was that for every illness there would be a pill to cure it (often several). The mindset has reduced somewhat since then, but its still very much a part of the background (and might well be different in different countries*).

    I also recall a nurse saying one time that most people who go to the doctors get better on their own, whilst its only a much smaller faction who actually require proper medication. However despite these two facts a lot of drugs are indeed handed out (even though we are aware of the placebo effect and could avoid many of the actual drugs being used).



    * I have a feeling that the UK might have pulled back from the pill culture a little; whilst the USA has much more of a problem - at least from what I can work out from media influences and references.