troubling truths or vicious rumours? stories coming from america atm

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by JIM, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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  2. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I am not impressed. Reading into the DoJ whitepaper, it becomes clear that the US exacts a special kind of military justice on Americans who actively side with terrorist groups - specifically Al-Qua'ida and their associates. If anything, the libertines of the forum you quote should wonder why Americans fighting on the other side of the fence deserve special attention. Over, say, those of European nationality. But no mention of that.

    Secession is not even on the table in the US. Typically, secessions need a majority of citizens in favour at the very least. Those numbers aren't reached in most European secession hotbeds. 34.000+? That doesn't even register. Not even in North Dakota.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
  3. jake1964

    jake1964 Old enough to be your dad

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    It's also illegal.

    Under Article III, Section III of our Constitution, only Congress can set punishment for treason.
    Which you cant be found guilty of except on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act or have to confess to in open court.

    In addition, according to the 5th Amendment to our Constitution; No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

    The 6th Amendment states; “In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.”

    As an American citizen, he has these rights.
    If he was killed in a battle he elected to wage against American troops that would be an entirely different case.
    Killed from half a world away, while making plans to do something evil does not eliminate his right to a trial.
    Evil person or not, we can't ignore our own laws. The end does not justify the means.


    As for secession, the last time we did that those damned Yankees burned Atlanta. ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  4. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Thanks for enlightening us on US law, Jake.

    Now, how about citizens of allied nationalities?
     
  5. jake1964

    jake1964 Old enough to be your dad

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    Sorry, I have no knowledge of that.
     
  6. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    That's a bit suspicious, innit?
     
  7. jake1964

    jake1964 Old enough to be your dad

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    Not really. I've always been a "What's in it for me?" kind of guy.

    So I never had a reason to wonder what's in it for you? ;)
     
  8. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Fair enough.
     
  9. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    You see here the untoward application of the constitution as it stands. Gracious as it may be, it's always been somewhat of a handicap to the US constitution. It is somewhat too precise in circumstance. Too precise for what is clearly to become a dead letter by which to live by in the foreseeable future of its adoption.

    Doesn't say anything about citizenship here. Apparently, no one can be shot without due process in the US or by a representative of that country.

    Apparently, the drafters of the constitution forgot about mercenaries as well, by the way - not uncommon in those times.
     
  10. jake1964

    jake1964 Old enough to be your dad

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    It's that precise for good reason.

    Imprisoning someone for treason was a common tactic of the monarchy to silence political dissenters.

    They also took care to clearly define what was considered treason.

    The whole clause reads:

    “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

    The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.”



    The opening statement of our Constitution (The Preamble) states:

    “We the people of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

    Since the document states that "We the people of the United States...", my assumption would be that the document as a whole addresses citizens. But I'm no expert.

    I would add that the first 10 amendments are called "The Bill of Rights".

    I look at it as a contract between the government and citizens of the US.

    I did find this for you...

    February 18, 1976: Pres. Gerald Ford issued Executive Order 11905, a secret finding barring U.S. personnel from assassination plots. It stated: "5(g) Prohibition on Assassination. No employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassination."

    This order has be signed by every president since Ford.
    But my government constantly demonstrates that it is willing to ignore any law it finds inconvenient. Take from it what you will.


    I can assure you that the colonists would not have forgotten about mercenaries.
    They were very familiar with the Hessian mercenaries that were employed by the British army.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  11. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    well, the aussie merc, David Hicks, was held for 3 yrs by the US before trial, causing a lot of butthurt losers over here. personally i think if he's shooting at our boys he's an enemy and our government should disassociate itself.... hang the bastard.
     
  12. jake1964

    jake1964 Old enough to be your dad

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    Being held 3 years before trial is unconscionable.
     
  13. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    nah, traitor and merc. lock him in a tiny room with no windows for all i care
     
  14. jake1964

    jake1964 Old enough to be your dad

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    I agree. After you try him and if he's found guilty. ;)
     
  15. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    not really sure there needs to be a trial if he's found with the enemy soldiers, in an enemy uniform, shooting at soldiers from his home country and their allies. thats treason
     
  16. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    @Jake:

    How quaint. We have an entirely different constitution, which is, on the whole, a lot less precise and at times clearly transcends nationality and even location. I don't understand, by the way, why the American people should be protected from the powers of a monarch, when clearly it is not a monarchy. But that aside.

    The conclusion of the US constitution as provided must be, however, that other coalition troops - say German or British - might better take out those US citizens who take up arms for the Taleban. Which is also quaint.
     
  17. jake1964

    jake1964 Old enough to be your dad

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    The document was drafted after we fought a war to free ourselves from a monarchy. The intent was to prevent what were perceived as abuses of power from happening under the new government.

    I guess you could draw that conclusion. I don't.

    I may be reading something into your responses that isn't there. But I'm starting to feel as if I'm defending my country's laws.

    I am not a lawyer nor do I have any background in law. There are hundreds of thousands of laws regulating everything under the sun in this country. I couldn't tell you much about any of them.

    What I know is the contents of my country's founding documents. It was required learning back in the dark ages when I was in high school.

    The reason I originally posted in this thread was to voice my opposition to my government ignoring its own laws as laid out in our founding documents.

    I will be bowing out now.

    Have a nice day.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  18. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Well, so there you have it. There is an intellectual, constitutional discussion at the basis of the DoJ whitepaper. They seem to have decided that situation favours killing Americans who place themselves in harms way. In a war zone. That's kind of a far cry from the first two links provided by JIM. I think the representative democracy will know how to handle from here.

    Maybe I let the texts provided by JIM get to me a bit too much....