This happens in Iraq

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by azuren82, Apr 7, 2010.

  1. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Messages:
    2,795
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Singapore, Singapore, Singapore
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0
    I'm pretty much surprised that given the intense coverage, there's yet to be a topic on this issue. Firstly, the URL:

    http://www.collateralmurder.com/

    I know there will be tons of right end nutjobs justifying this crap, but what I'm looking for here isn't some random biased statements. Rather objective comments on this issue. That plus I believe WikiLeaks has been an independant media if my memory is correct.

    One interesting thing I'm getting from comments by people who have been through the war is that war can and will unhinge a person totally. Apparently, it can come via subtle or not too subtle results. So one of my questions is that can this issue be an excuse for such and act?

    Also, here's some interesting comments from an American poster in a forum:

    i'm pretty excited at the thought of military apologists flooding in and trying to justify this, so i'll go ahead and preempt a few excuses that will probably happen in this thread --

    'but, but, the stress of war...'
    there is no indication these men are 'stressed'. they're sitting comfortably in machine gun turrets on helicopters yards away from the incident and are heckling and laughing as they pump machine gun rounds into innocent people. there's no stress involved.

    'but they weren't innocent, they had weapons!'
    1.) the claim of their holding 'weapons' is specious at best, it's pretty difficult to tell (and as such should not have been a pretense upon which the decision was made to open fire on people strolling through a neighborhood)
    2.) it seems hard to believe to me these people were insurgents when they were dressed in bright colors strolling through a wide-open courtyard area in a neighborhood while a helicopter circles the area. doesn't it make sense that real insurgents wouldn't yknow, be wearing clothes that make them an easy target and wouldn't be just sort of sauntering through a neighborhood with weapons?
    3.) everyone in this part of the world has weapons. literally everyone, for the very reason that things like this happens every day. I watched a part of a documentary once on yemen and everyone single person in the entire film had not just one weapon, but entire sheds full of AK-47s and other firearms; there was a segment in which they interviewed an old woman sitting in her house with her small granddaughter with rifles casually leaning against the wall in the background. it's a part of life in this area of the world.
    4.) the van was full of innocent people (including children who were wounded) trying to save what they thought was just a wounded person and not an 'INSURGENT' who had just been mowed down by a helicopter machine gun. all of the people in the van except the children were killed, btw.

    'this is just how war is.'
    No it's not, and even if it was it still wouldn't be acceptable to kill civilians from the air under a flimsy pretext of 'weapons'. these men were literally begging from their superiors to open fire and kill these people (they were, watch the video). it's not normal or acceptable to go out of your way to kill people on a city street in a neighborhood for little to no reason at all.
    i'm pretty sure it's also common sense to never open fire on an unmarked civilian vehicle when you can't see what's inside (considering this is a normal city street where people live and work, and there's a good possibility that - as happened here - there would be children in the vehicle.)

    Sorry that I can't post the URL. The section which this comment was made can only be accessible via member log in. So what do you guys think?
     
  2. Justice

    Justice New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    1,260
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Southern California
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0
    It's war.

    Honestly, that's the answer. War is hell. Sometimes bad judgments are made.

    Many things were left out of this story. #1, yes there were verified insurgents mixed in with random people. Common tactic of terrorists and insurgents, set up near schools, hospitals, houses full of innocent people.

    Also left out of most reports is the city is likely Fallujah, which was an insurgent stronghold. For years NATO policy was that virtually everyone in the city were cooperating with or actually were insurgents. Terrorists, bomb and IED makers, all sorts of foreigners including Al Quaeda were given sanctuary in that city. The US Army had to conduct a several week long operation to clear out the city.

    So no, this isn't real exciting. it's video clips without context. it's very easy to show a video of what appears to be unarmed people getting shot. Video snippets only tell part of a much larger story.

    Then we get quotes like this.

    "Scott Ewing, who served in Iraq from 2005-2006, admitted on one panel that units intentionally gave candy to Iraqi children for reasons other than "winning hearts and minds.

    "There was also another motive," Ewing said. "If the kids were around our vehicles, the bad guys wouldn't attack. We used the kids as human shields.'"

    Interesting this quote, in a truthout.org article, raised such ire. US soldiers weren't loading tanks and SUV's full of kids so that kids would get hurt instead of them, they were giving handouts to children. I am sure maybe some people joked about not being attcked by insurgents because they had children around, but that idea simply isn't true. Terrorists STILL attack, and very willingly, with children around.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Suits

    Former army Captain Bryan Suits had a charity called "Boots for Suits" where he had people in the US mail him boots that he could pass out to children when he noticed so many ran barefoot over rocky ground. One day, while handing boots out at a charity event full of hundreds of kids, a terrorist drove a car bomb up to the event and detonated it, killing dozens of children. He recounted this episode on a radio program he hosted about a year back. When doctors showed up to help the surviving children, a second car bomb went off, killing even more children, children wounded from the first blast, and many of the doctors. This all happened because some army staff person thought it was a good idea to post the charity event in a local newspaper. It seems terrorists read newspapers as well.

    An incident like that doesn't even raise an eyebrow to most people. Some US troops opening fire on what they considered to be aggressive targets, rightly or wrongly, and accidentally injuring children? Worldwide scorn.

    There's just no sense of scale anymore. Everything is bias these days.
     
  3. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -0
    That's what KLA terrorists did during the war in Kosovo.They used to launch attacks from villages and towns,provoke the Serbs,then the Serbs attacked them,terrorists used to mix with the population,civilian casualties were sometimes unavoidable....then USA and NATO was like "ooooh genocide...poor Albanians".
     
  4. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Messages:
    2,795
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Singapore, Singapore, Singapore
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0
    I think one thing that I feel is true is that war can desensitize even the hardiest of the soul. It's like you're in an environment where it's kill or to be killed. Sooner or later, the pressure will get to you big time, be it in a subtle way or not so subtle way. Apparently in a forum that I go to, an ex-US soldier actually verified this truth to such an extent that he commented that it's very hard for returning US soldiers to adapt back to normal life especially given what could possibly happen back there in their own backyard while they are away on the war front. How true you you guys think these statements of mine is?
     
  5. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -0
    I read that many Russian soldiers who came back from Chechnya had serious problems adapting to every day life,many ended up drinking a lot,others suffered psychological problems and generally...the whole pressure in such a war is nerve-wrecking.Suspecting everyone of being an enemy.Who is the rebel and who is the civilian?Will he attack me?What does he have in his pockets?Is it worth fighting here or not?Will I die?Should I surrender or die fighting?Should I fire first or not?
     
  6. Ser Land

    Ser Land New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Azores, Portugal
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0
    In war, you either develop a kind of paranoid feeling that everyone is a potential enemy, or you die. It is especially hard, when you can't tell for sure who's the enemy. The time when the two sides gathered in opposite sides of a field is long past gone.
     
  7. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -0
    Those good old times in 1750 when the enemy officers addressed each other as "sir" :)
     
  8. AlphaAlex

    AlphaAlex Official Forum Nuisance

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2008
    Messages:
    8,691
    Likes Received:
    214
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Australia
    Ratings:
    +307 / 3 / -0
    That camera looked so much like an RPG.... :rolleyes:

    I guess you can't take second guesses in a warzone, but you'd think they would have assessed the situation a little better. I would have thought with all the technology they have, they could have zoomed in a bit better. I understand a few seconds can make a big difference, but the people on the streets were oblivious to the helicopter, so it's not like there was any danger to the soldiers.
     
  9. Ser Land

    Ser Land New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Azores, Portugal
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0
    Exactly.They were more civilized times, eh?:)
     
  10. DarrenNavi

    DarrenNavi Author of RTTH

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2010
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    or even in world war 2 when u knew the enemy were the germans and the japs. I dont need to tell you that allied forces killed millions and millions of enemy civilians. That being said, not all iraqis are the enemy and most arent. But many of them are willing to tolerate insurents using their neighbourhoods. Until you get the full weight of the population behind their government the insurents still have the upper hand. If however the population suddenly says we no longer want you running through our streets, using our house and killing our children for your Jihad. Then we are going to see the insurents kicked out of these civilian areas and become easier targets for the military and police to tackle
     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -0
    Last night I saw a video on youtube that was talking about ex-insurgents from Anbar who formed their own militia and cooperate with the Iraqi police and the U.S. Army in order to keep terrorists out of their areas.Apparently Al Qaeda terrorists had killed some of their tribal Sheikhs and you know,in Iraq there are various tribes so they don't tolerate that anymore and decided to form their own army and fight against the terrorists.
     
  12. ScreenXSurfer

    ScreenXSurfer Better Than You

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Messages:
    304
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Where you want to live
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0
    Put an end to that ASAP, then. I'm counting the days when that militia joins in the Islamic 30 years war on the Sunni's side.