They go to Valinor, but do they die?

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Lady_of_Shalott, Sep 9, 2003.

  1. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    I hadn't read that, but glad it answers the question, Sabishii.

    The gift of men applies to all mortals, hobbits are relatives of men, therefore mortal. I would assume it refers to dwarves also. While they live longer, they are also mortal. I'm not sure what happens to Ents. Especially those who become tree-ish.

    Where dead orcs go is another issue. Because if they were corrupted from elves, they are immortal. If they were created by Melkor like Aule created dwarves, then I would assume they are mortal.
     
  2. Haldir

    Haldir Archer Extraordinaire

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    When do Gimli and Legolas goto Valinor? This I'd assume is in the Appendix that I've not read yet? After they've gone to Fangorn and wherever Gimli wanted to take Legolas etc.

    Surely if Frodo, Sam etc's lives could be extended why not extend them until the end of Arda. So they could all pass into the next life, which Gandalf describes beautifully in Return of the King, together?

    That'd be a nice way of thinking about it.

    Please don't kill me if that's stupid! I'm still early in reading the Silmarillion so I've a lot to get through yet! :)
     
  3. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    gimli and legolas go to valinor when aragorn dies at least i think so got to break my rotk out to be sure though and i dont think they were extended and i think in the sil it says that aule gathered to halls set apart in mandos i think thats what they believe
     
  4. Haldir

    Haldir Archer Extraordinaire

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    Just on a slightly different note but relating back to something that was posted earlier.

    Elves die then they goto Mandos, I think, resting place. Then Mandos can send them back, if he wants to? Is that right?

    If so then that resting place must be rather full. Lotta famous people there!
     
  5. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    Appendix B, year 1541
    In this year on arch 1st came the Passing of King Elessar. It is said that the beds of Meriadoc and Peregrin were set beside the bed of the great king. Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and saild down Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, itis said, went Gimli the Dwarf. And when that ship passed an end was come in Middle-Earth of the Fellowship of the Ring.

    In the Sil and the Book of Lost Tales it says that elves only rest in the Halls of Mandos for a time. They are sent back to new kin being born.
     
  6. Haldir

    Haldir Archer Extraordinaire

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    So, excuse me if I've taken this up wrong, it's almost a form in reincarnation? They die, rest and they are born. If so, does that mean that there is a maximum number of elves? One has to die for one to be born?

    Thanks for the Appendix quote Nienor. Must actually *read* the Appendices!!
     
  7. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    *laughs* no, a maximum number of elves sounds ridiculous to me.

    remember that, although it's a fact that they re-incarnate sooner of later, this process may take thousands of years, and the only elves of which I know they have been re-encarnated so-far are Glorfindel and Finrod Felagund.
     
  8. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    In one of the books I think it's the Book of Lost Tales, it says there is a set number of elves. I'm busily looking for that quote. :)

    The Book of Lost Tales 1 - The coming of the Valar
    Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain - an only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while. There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might again be born into their children, and go forth to laugh and sing again.

    I think that the elves who are slain, might be in Mandos for a long period of time depending on what they did during their lives.
     
  9. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    Aha... Found it. :D

    Book of Lost Tales 1 - The Music of the Ainur
    It is however of one with this gift of pwer that the Children of Men dwell only a short time in the world alive, yet do not perish utterly for ever, whereas the Eldar dwell till the Great End unless they be slain or waste in grief (for to both of these deaths are they subject), nor doth eld subdue their strength, except it may be in ten thousand centuries; and dying they are reborn in their children, so that their number minishes not, nor grows
     
  10. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    The Mortality of men and the immortality of the Elves, and all the "gifts and afterlife" that go with them are gifts given by Illuvatar to his children. The only children of Illuvatar are Men and Elves. The Dwarves are the children of Aule, and the Orc's, Dragon's, Etc. are corrupted servants of Melkor.

    That being said I don't think that we can assume that the afterlife of Dwarves, Orc's or whatever would be the same as that of men.
     
  11. Haldir

    Haldir Archer Extraordinaire

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    Thanks again for the quote Nienor. I think I'll have to add that book to my list of ones to read, eventually! :p

    There is so much detail in these books. It's so unbelievable (the amount of detail I mean). Great stuff...
     
  12. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    But dwarves are adopted children of Illuvatar. Adopted children have all the rights of legitimate children. OFC, this is a debateable issue. They could just turn back into the stone they were made from. (Should I start a new thread to discuss the afterlives in general? Seems like an interesting issue.)

    Haldir, there's so much stuff to read in Tolkein's works. I've only read a few books. As far as the quotes, gotta back up your theories. ;)
     
  13. Haldir

    Haldir Archer Extraordinaire

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    A new thread might be interesting but might be full of me saying but what if this that and the other! :p

    Think I'll stick a bit more to the reading and then have the knowledge! And knowledge is power after all. *evil chuckle*
     
  14. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    Sounds like a good plan, I've been looking for an excuse to argue with you all week. ;)
     
  15. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    As if you need an excuse. :p

    Haldir, no problem. We like hearing everyone's opinions here. I even listen to Turin's sometimes. hehe
     
  16. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    hmm, I was about to mention that rather than listen, you tend to focus on the next thing you are going to say!
     
  17. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    OFC, when there's nothing worth listening too. :p
     
  18. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    All I can hear is that annoying flapping sound
     
  19. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    At your age it might help to turn up the hearing aid.
    ROFL, I never thought you were 98. 'xplains alot. :p
     
  20. Auedawen

    Auedawen New Member

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    Hmm, i just found and interesting quote in the Silmarillion:Akkallabeth pg. 323 (least in my version). "But the design of Manwe was that the Numenoreans should not be tempted to seek for the Blessed Realm, nor desire to overpass the limits set to their bliss, becoming enamoured of the immortality of the Valar and the Eldar and the lands where all things endure. Now, i think i read somewhere earlier in this thread someone said they read in the Letters to Tolkien that Tokien said that those mortal beings to travel to Valinor will one day die. Anyone have a quote of this or should i just trust ya?
     
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