Discussion in 'Debates' started by Lady_of_Shalott, Sep 9, 2003.
being a ring bearer might have played a role in it as well
I'm sure being a Ringbearer did have some weight, but I still don't think Sam expected much. I'd take the chance for one more adventure before it was over. Who wouldn't?
I don't remember his name. I believe it might have been Tuor. But once a human mortal went to the undying lands and was I believe granted immortality. And no I am not talking of the man who chose elvendom because his wife did.
Are you thinking of Earendil? He is half elf. But yes he was granted immortality (so to speak)
I read in "The Encyclopedia of Arda" that Tolkien was careful to state that mortals remained mortals even though they went to the Undying Lands. [<http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm> Index: Undying Lands]
yes.. and it's in the Silmarillion, I think, there has been said the only mortal who became immortal was Tuor. So I suppose they died, possibly after a long time...
here try this link.
Or just look up earendil the mariner on EoA. He was allowed to sail the shies bearing a Silmaril, he is there today.
Frodo and Sam would probably remain mortal but would live extended lives in a sense. Remember after they left Lothlorien it is mentioned that time passes slower for Elves than for Men, and that in Lothlorien the time passed slow for all. I would think that in Valinor they would still live to be one hundred something but since time passes differently it would seem like much longer.
Kind of like Einstein's theory of special relativity, just in case anyone wanted to get into a debate about that
That is such a sad thought! I had always just thought that they went to the undying lands and became immortal and lived happilly ever after as a prize for being ringbearers.
How could they just be given immortality? Ideally, then, anyone who bore the Ring, for good or evil, would get immortality. Then you'd argue that only those involved with the Fellowship should get immortality, but from there, the point becomes "what of those who didn't bear the ring but were in the Fellowship?" And so on. Didn't Gimli go over?
yes gimli sailed to valinor with legolas
Yeah Gimly ends up going over with Legolas. Also I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien said that mortals do not become immortal by going to Valinor. I'll try to find where I read that.
As you know the Valar created Arda (which includes Valinor)
The people that life in Arda (with the possible exception of the Dwarves) are created by Eru Illuvatar. Eru created elves to be immortal and trapped within the boundaries of Arda. And Men with the gift of death, to escape the borders of this world and to go to somewhere beyond. Tolkien clearly stated that the Valar could not change mortals into immortals and vice versa because that authority was not theirs, but Eru's alone.
the logical question you could ask yourself then is: why would any Mortal become immortal if he happens to life in the realm of the Valar? (again: which is not even created by Illuvatar himself)
i think that bilbo and frodo and sam lived happily in the cottage of lost play until they died thats what i think happened.
Wouldn't it stink if when all of the elves got to Valinor an ambush of Dark Eldar came and shot them all up?
But why then were the Men of Numenor, let alone any non-Eldar, not allowed to set foot upon the lands of the Valar? Surely, there is no lack of magic on Arda, and could the name of the "Undying Lands" be taken literally?
Simply because they were not intended to live there, they were to live in Endor.
Yes they were meant to live there and they were also meant to be mortal. So could that be the reason they were not allowed to set foot in Valinor?
Hm, where did it state that Sam travelled to Valinor? I don't recall hearing this in any of the books. I haven't, however, read the Letter's of Tolkien so i suppose it could have been stated in there.
Oh yea, and it's the "Gift of Men" that allows Men to leave Arda, unless i missed something in one of the books again, this applies only to men correct? Don't believe it ever stated what ever happened to dwarves/orcs/hobbits/ents etc.
Sam travels to Valinor in the Appendix, I think... The timeline part.
I just read a few of Tolkien's letters, and yes mortals do die in the Undying Lands (so I was wrong), although in a land "untainted by the dark."
Separate names with a comma.