They go to Valinor, but do they die?

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Lady_of_Shalott, Sep 9, 2003.

  1. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    All right, this may be obvious to some, but it is an on-going debate in my house.

    Frodo, Sam, Bilbo, and Gimli all end up going to Valinor. Now does this mean they live forever? On one hand, because they are mortals, they should die, but these are the Undying Lands. My sister contends that they go they just to rest until they die, Frodo particularly, because he was the Ringbearer. She uses the kinslaying and the fact that Feanor's mother died as examples of people dying in Valinor.

    So, do they die?? :confused:
     
  2. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    I keep wondering the same thing myself. I can't find anything in the books I've read that is specific about their fates after they leave ME.

    It's true that people die in Valinor, but the elves there only died from the kinds of deaths that elfs are subject to. (mortal wounds, grief) The kinslaying and death of Feanor's father are unusual occurances, mostly prompted by Melkor's malice. Miriel's death was because she gave all her life to Feanor. (Hmm.. Ever stop to wonder why people keep dying when they're around Feanor) So, while death happens, it's usually under quite unusual circumstances.

    As far as Frodo, Sam, Gimli and Bilbo's fate is concerned. Their appearance in Valinor is unusual. My thought is they were only allowed in the Undying Lands through the grace of the Valar and untimately Iluvatar for their deeds in ME. Others who managed to find their way to Valinor perished immediately upon the shores. I think this grace extends to being immortal also. It wouldn't be fair to bring them to this perfect place and then be subject to death. After all, if they died, it would be rather upsetting to the others who lived in Valinor.
     
  3. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    I to, have not found any answer in the books I have read.

    Like Nienor said, it was unusual for them to be there. If the Valar could make the exception for them to live there because of their deeds, certainly the Valar could change them into immortal's.

    But then again, it is possible for them to have died.

    I really don't know *:confused:* Has anyone read Tolkiens Letters? Seems like a place where the question might be answered.
     
  4. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    The answer lies in the Tale of Numenor. It is stated that the undying lands are undying because of the people who live there. The people are not undying because they live in Valinor.
     
  5. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    So they do die then? I suppose, then, they were just brought there to rest in peace for a while before the end. I think it's a shame, though, after all Frodo did. And Sam too.
     
  6. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    I would assume that they died, it never says otherwise. There have been an occasion or two when the gods granted a mortal "extra time"
     
  7. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    Ya, I suppose that to could of been an option. Give them an extra 200 years:)
     
  8. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    I'm not saying that is what happened. Just that it had in the past.
     
  9. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    Yeah, thats why I said it could be an option.;)
     
  10. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    I am sure they eventually died because Illuvatar fated them to do so. They were not created to last forever as elves were(as long as Arda exists that is) .When Mortals die, their spirits leave the bounderies of Arda and are not seen again. It is their gift to leave Arda behind and not to be bound to it. this is their doom, a doom that strong that even Manwe himself has neither the authority or the power to change it.
    Elves, on the other hand ARE bound to the limits of Arda and can't move on, even as they die they don't leave but go to the halls of Mandos to rest and be purified(when needed)until Mandos sees fit to reembody them and live on.
    So you could look at it this way: Men and other mortals live their lives and then have the freedom to move on whereas elves are 'imprisoned' within the eartly realm and have no choice but to live until the end of Arda. :eek:
     
  11. finrod

    finrod Born to woe.

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    Beren might be called an exception to this although he didn't get immortal but, as Turin says, got extra time( which cost Luthien her immortality)
     
  12. Harrison

    Harrison The Best Beatle

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    I thought that sam stayed in the shire to raise his family and continue being mayor.:confused:
     
  13. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    He did. And then when Rosie died, and he was very, very old, he finally sailed to Valinor.
     
  14. Harrison

    Harrison The Best Beatle

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    oh, I see
     
  15. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    I think he was like 99 or something
     
  16. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    In the appendix. Samwise was born in 1380 and left for the Havens on September 22, 1482. So he was 102. Unless I can't do math.

    I don't understand the purpose of Bilbo and Samwise leaving for Valinor in their old age, unless they were granted extra time or became immortal.
     
  17. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    That's a very good point. Unless he thought he would be given more, time why go? Unless maybe he wanted to see Frodo again before he died. He may not have had any expectation to get more time, but only wanted to see Frodo..
     
  18. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    hey if you were old as dirt, had the chance to go to a place like Valinor and sit around drinking wine and eatin' cheese with the gods, would you take it?

    why not, at 102 your not gonna get much accomplished in the shire anyway.
     
  19. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    I agree. Sam probably wanted to see Frodo, Gandalf, and company. Sure he still had his children in the Shire, but his time was coming to an end, and he had played a major role in the War of the Ring.
     
  20. Asgath

    Asgath Heavy-metal dwarf

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    I still think they lived for an extended time, even if they did go to Valinor just for a laugh, just because Middle-Earth was pants.

    Valinor was some what superreal, or supernatural, So I think they would generally get extented life...
     
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