The wall in Israel

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Jessehk, Mar 14, 2004.

  1. Jessehk

    Jessehk The introverted

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    What are everybodys's opinions on the wall being built in Israel? I am jewish and I am extremely sad over what it does to palestinians, however, it has stopped suicide bombing and terrorism. However, it may be the only way to avoid suicide bombings. Very, very few palestinians are actually involved with terrorism. It is like punishing the inocent. but on the other hand...bloodshed is being avoided. The issue is extremely controversial but morally difficult as well. opinions?

    Racism directed at Either Jews or Muslims will not be tolerated by me. Aside from that, whatever.
     
  2. Ender

    Ender New Member

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    I’m not Jewish or Muslim but I’ll give my take on the wall situation. I think the Jewish people are doing what is necessary to protect their people’s lives. I can not imagine what life would be like if just going out to get dinner at a pizza parlor or going to work on the bus could be the end of your life or your family’s life. The Jewish people have tried other methods in the past. By going over to Palestine and hunting the terrorists but how can you possibly find all of them? If the Jewish people plan to stay then the wall may be the only way of preserving life. Just my take on this, you may see it differently.
     
  3. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    i have many moslem and jewish friends. and from what ive herd the wall is the only way to help people not get hurt
     
  4. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Suicide bombings all but stopped after the wall was built. Can't really argue with results.

    Although not all Palestinians are terrorists, unfortunately there is a very large percent that supports them. And many throw rocks and molotov cocktails while snipers try to kill Israeli soldier, and when someone not holding a gun gets killed they make it sound like the Israeli soldier meant to kill them.
     
  5. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I don't think the Wall is the solution to the Israel/Palestina issue. The suicide bombers will always find a way around the fence, one way or the other. Maybe the number of bombings will drop but not decimate. Furthermore, the aim will be more deaths per bombing, if the number of bombings is reduced. Then, building a wall gives out the wrong signal and only awakens the wrath of Palastineans towards Jews. Needless to say, part of the wall is built on "Palestinean soil" and thus makes it land stealing, making the Palestineans even more angry.

    Then, I like to say that I think the Isreal/Palestina issue is extremely bizarre. Group one (re)claims a piece of land, inhabited by group two, who are partially chased out and denied their rights. And the Jews aren't exactly strange with being suppressed. It is like the Palestineans have to endure 2000 years of wrath built up in the Jews. For all the years they had to live behind walls and fences, they shood know better.
     
  6. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Well, even though they might be taking a bit of the Palestinians land, at this point they deserve it. They have taken thousands of Jewish lives through terrorism, I'm surprised Israel has launched a massive assault on Hamas. Basically it's like this, terrorists or not, most Palestinians support what their terrorists are doing. The fence has stopped suicide bombings altogether. As far as the Jews are concerned, the system works. The Palestinians are getting enraged because they can no longer get their point across by sending a child on a bus packed full of explosives (recently a boy was told to cross a checkpoint with some in his back pack. When a soldier stopped him the man tried to detonate it, but it failed).

    Any nation that has to resort to these means I feel has lost the right to negotiate in any manner for land or for any other reason, and should just thank their lucky stars that the Israelis haven't dona a lot more than they have.
     
  7. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Imagin this: US of A is invaded tomorrow by 300 million native americans, supported by russia. They claim this land to be theirs (which is rightfully theirs) and try to kick all the Americans out. Somehow, they succeed partially, but for the rest of the USA citicens there are the massive ghetto's where they can spent the rest of their days. Would 90% of all Americans approve of this action? What, hell no. There wouldn't even be 5% supporting this, resulting in mayhem, trying to sabotage the Native American Nation (NAN) with all resources available... and now comes the funny part: It would be called PATRIOTTISM.

    This isn't a simpe case of random terrorism we are beginning to get used to, this is civil war. And if the Jews were on the losing hand... The body count Jews/Palestineans is 1:3.

    And don't get me wrong, suicide bombing is wrong, but doing the same damage from a helicopter is evenly so. There isn't a "good" party in this, it is a dirty war without end if politcs don't change.
     
  8. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Problem with that is that Americans have not been systematically bombing the heck out of these people at any time. Americans have never done anything like terrorism unless you count in a handful of wackos like the Uni-Bomber or Timothy McVeigh. Of course America would stand up to an invasion, it's because 99.999% of our people have never done anything wrong to Native Americans or Russians.

    The Palestinians are being anything but civil in this case. If there were such a problem, why doesn't anybody else in the Arab nation help them out, give them some land to live on, etc... because they are enjoying the fact that the Palestinians are bombing the heck out of civilians. And Israeli troops are not targeting civilians, they are targeting terrorists, so I don't see what purpose a 1:3 kill ratio is when Palestinians go after civilians, and Israelis go after militants. I have no problem with the Israeli incursions because, although sturring up trouble, what are the Palestinians getting mad over? That their beloved criminals are getting killed? They don't need to be harboring terrorists. Sure, innocents are getting caught in the cross fire, but they don't have to be in huge crowds throwing rocks at tanks and trying to distract them while snipers shoot at Israeli soldiers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2004
  9. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    The arab world want to help out the Palestineans; If they could, they would invade Israel this instant but they lack the military power AND the US supports Israel. Furthermore, neigbouring lands are poor and don't want to harbour an other nation (look at the kurds). They have enough other problems. Their vision is that Palestineans belong in Palestina.

    The arguement that the arab world doesn't help the palestineans, just so that they can keep up their Intifada is a bit far fetched. Sure, they don't like the Jews for what they have done.

    Indeed, Israel claims always to target "Military objects", though proper proof is scarsely provided. And any civilian killed is called "collateral damage" and they don't apologise for those "mistakes". Personally, I take the retaliation policy with a pinch of salt. It is a self-sustaining buisiness and will continue until the circle of violence is broken. It is said that 20% of the palestineans stands behind Hamas, does Israel continue untill they are all eliminated, along with all the suporters of other organisations? Is that called "humane"? Is the way Israel treat Palestineans from the beginning humane? No, it is war, and a very dirty one at that.
     
  10. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    The neighboring lands are poor, but they are VERY large. Plenty of room there for Palestinians. Israel is small, about the size of Southern California, and they have already given up much of their lands to them, and they keep demending more. The fact is they lost that area after the Arab - Israeli war in '67. Israel not only defeated the Arab invaders, but drove them back and took back some territory that used to belong to them centuries ago.

    Yet you agree that the Arab world would invade and wipe out israel if they had the resources. So if they don't I don't see what is so far fetched about letting Palestine do that for them.



    Collateral damage has always been a part of war. Israeli soldeirs don't hide in homes or hospitals when they fight, but Palestinian militants do. And then the world cries foul when an innocent on the Palestinians side gets killed, but not much is said when they blow up a bus full of women and children in Jerusalem. They also give children weapons and explosives, and if anything they target civilians entirely whereas the Israelis more often than not respond to an attack with a counter attack meant to kill the militants involved in the first place.

    I do think the Palestinians deserve to be helped, but not until they stop resorting to terrorism. The U.S. does not negotiate with terrorists, so we have nothing to say to them until they denounce their Hamas leaders and come to the bargaining table to end violence.
     
  11. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Used to belong to them? Australia used to belong to the aboriginals. Istanbul belonged once to Greece, in a way. Israel shood belong to Iraq, if you will. These historical claims have long lost their legitimacy. They shood be left aside for the sake of peace.

    And there are some vast countries around israel, though scarsely inhabitable. And these countries have problems enough of their own. Besides, that is not the way it works in the middle-east. Only with armies, territory is won. And yes, milions of palestineans live in Egypt and Syria, in refugee camps.

    Well, first of all the current Israelian tactics involve F-16's, helicopters, bombs and rockets (see assasination of today). These can't be classified as precision-dismanteling of millitant targets. They are normally in urban area's. Mossad has plenty of ways to do it a lot cleaner; they are supposed to be better than the CIA.

    And indeed, children are used in the intifada, which I have to agree, is wrong. The mustering of new "troops" isn't clean. Much can be said about that, though it is not the issue. I'd like to debate with you on that, on a different platform.

    Oh, and CNN does cover every suicide bombing on every bus in Israel. And every time the world is shocked (though the effect wears out, over time) The other story is just more hidden and Israel tries to keep that under covers. They are just as shocking to me as the bus-bomb pictures.

    They do, they have to put down their wapons, both of them. But as long as bombing continues, Israel continues retaliation, which leads to more suicide bombings etc. Just look at the grim language all organisations gave after Yassin was murdered. It isn't the answer.

    And I hold Israel to be the more developed, civilised of the two. They are completely industrialised and technologically advanced at the level of the US. The palestineans have no means to get to that (Israel distroyed their infrastructure). That's why I think Israel has to decide to put down weapons, return troops and get to negotiation.

    Oh and finally... US does negotiate with terrorists all kinds of terrorists, examples are abundant. They even hire them to do the dirty work and take over governments that they don't like. It just has to be in their policy, that's all. Israel is in their policy, they got them their, so Palestinians aren't. Furthermore, it is a bit much to call all palestinians Terrorists and US negotiated with them, a decade ago, as we all know.
     
  12. Jessehk

    Jessehk The introverted

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    I completely agree with your POV Justice (you gained my respect on this issue). In the past (I forget exactly when) the Israeli Prime Minister offered the Palestinians more land than what they were asking for in exchange for an end to violence. THEY REFUSED. IT IS NOT ABOUT ABOUT LAND. Some palestinians (SOME) are tought to hate Jews. In their textbooks, Israel is not even on the map.
    can you imagine living in a place where 10 year olds know how to make large, distructive bombs?

    I recently heard a report in which a MAN HID A BOMB UNDER HIS BABY'S CRIB.
    when the israeli army got wind of this and searched the house, they evacuated the house, and detonated the explosive. Nobody was hurt, but the house was ruined. Most of the civilian casualities on the Palestinian side have been armed. others are unfortunate, and I'd say that 90% of Israelis are saddened by these civilian casualties. The palestinian terrorists JUST DON'T CARE. JEWS ARE SEEN AS DIRT, AND KILLING THEM ( I should say us, in my case) WILL, IN THERE OPINION, SEND THEM TO HEAVEN.

    If they want to attack, attack Israels armies. imagine stepping on to a bus in your city and being blown-up.
    I shutter to think about it. Israel's citezins shouldn't be scared daily for their lives. Palestinians have the right to live as well, we all do. But I don't see how it's possible when these events occur.

    AND PLEASE, don't argue about who currently "owns" the land unless you've actually researched the events in the past. For example, emiediatly after the holocaust and Israel was created, 4 arab armies attacked to oblitorate it.

    Again, in 1967, the same 4 attacked again. Israel gained land in that war.

    As well, Im not sure of the dates, but when the palestinians occupied the western wall, and the dome of the rock which is sacred to them, Jews were not allowed anywhere near the area. When Isralael got it back in a war, Arabs were allowed, problem free, to acces their holy site.

    The problem with anti-semetism and any racism is that people have no backround in what they are speaking about. The media can sometimes be decieving.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2004
  13. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    That is not entirely true; they think they get to heaven if they kill occupiers of an arabian land, Israeli's, not Jews.

    It IS an important question. Indeed, the holocaust was wrong, the Jews suffered more than anyone's share in WW II. I just think the Brits and Americans acted wrong to just donate an entire, populated land to them. Far as I know it was a Brittish colony a they thought the future of that land was at their disposal but that was in a time nobody realised that this wasn't the right way.

    And I think occupying land by means of war isn't legitimate, even if you steal from the lands that attacked you. And if you think about it, these attackes were mere natural reaction to te occupation (in their eyes) of Palestina. Can't see why that is wrong.

    This is a classical Chicken-or-egg story. Who began what? Palestinians will say: You killed our kids in something you call retaliation, and thus we will kill yours, so Israel retaliates etcetera. Israel says: we have to build a wall, Palestinians say: this means war. It is neither beginning, nor end. The only end would be either Israel controlling Palestines Apartheid-style (which we are heading for) or some way of sharing land AND power, dropping all weapons.

    PLEASE don't get me wrong, I am not antisemetic or something. I follow these events for years, now. And indeed, clean news is hard to come by, but if I would follow that I would be behind your. Nontheless, I have had deep conversations with Israeli's and forreigners who lived in Israel for mor than a year. I have read books about it and have built my own opinion, that happens to oppose yours. Please don't call me such things.

    And now we are on it: Justice, Jessehk, what do you think of the Jews settling in the Ghaza area and the political attitude towards that?
     
  14. Jessehk

    Jessehk The introverted

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    I am not calling you racist. If you got that impression, than I am sorry.
    I was just saying, and I see you agree, that the media coverage on BOTH sides is iffy.

    You say that land gained in war is not legitamate. I respect your opinion, but I disagree. The romans gained (or did gain) vast amounts of land through war, I don't see how the Israeli conflict is different. Especially if the fighting was initiated by the other side.

    On your question: I don't want to get in to that because it brings up the religious side of the conflict. Very long religious debates.

    It was demonstrated in the Iraqi war that men hid in hopitals and used children as shields. The same methods are being used by the terrorists in Israel.
    And like Justice said, palestinian terrorists always target civilians, Israel does not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2004
  15. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    It's okay, I was just affraid this disscussion was on the brink of taking a wrong turn.

    OK, I can see that; so far we have left ou the religios aspect, and it's best to keep it that way, I think.

    Indeed, urban area's are used as a psychological shield as a (cowardly) counter measure. It is also true that regardless of this, Israel continues attacks, no matter what. Personally, I think this approach is a notch too far. Besides, Israel has other means than the air raids.

    Jessehk, I can understand that living under the constant threat of losing your live or those close to you is very anxious. I can understand that the call for the hard line approach would gather strength. It is only that the Palestinians feel it the same but have even less to lose and thus the more to fight for. They won't stop at the intensifying of the conflict, they see even more reason to react. It is like Newton's 3rd law: Action=Reaction. Intensify the action and the result would be intesified reaction. Combined with the current attitude of both parties, I just don't believe that the hard line is the final answer. Whether it is the construction of a wall or one of the so many suicide attacks, doesn't matter.