The Syrian Uprising

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Foinikas, Jun 2, 2012.

  1. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I've been wondering...what's your opinion on this?At first I thought it was just a typical case of Syrians rising up against a corrupted or ruthless tyrant.I used to hold Bashar Al-Assad in relatively high-esteem and then I started watching and reading about massacres committed by the Syrian army and security forces and government militia.

    But then again,I started watching and reading about how many people are pro-Assad and many are pro-government and I started wondering if this is a typical example of Arab Spring uprising or something hidden inside that uprising that we miss.

    First of all,most of the people who object are sunni muslims and we have to remember that Assad's Syria is a big thorn in USA and Israel's strategic and geopolitical plans in the Middle-East because it's also strongly allied and united with Iran and Lebanon's Shia majority.

    I saw some videos and read some articles of people from my faith,Orthodox Christians talking about the fear of an islamic jihadi regime kicking them out of the country or killing them if Assad's government falls.They also talk about how Assad keeps Syria united and the fear of Sunni militias attacking the Christian minorities.I also read that Orthodox,Catholic,Syriac and other Christians along with even some sunni muslims and Alewites are afraid of retribution by the armed militia and renegade army soldiers.In any case they speak of an islamic government establishment if Assad is removed from power and they win.

    On the other hand I see how the Syrian army brutally tries to smash down any opposition.But again in many videos I hear the typical "Allahu Akbar" said again and again and again.Armed anti-Assad groups showing off their guns while bearing islamic flags and wearing scarves and hoods to hide their identities just like the terrorists in iraq,afghanistan and chechnya did.

    So I am honestly very very confused about the whole situation.


    Stuff like this make me rethink the situation and think if Assad is better to stay on power.

     
  2. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I'll hold my hands up and admit I've not looked too deeply into this issue, but from what I can gather its like a lot of the eastern countries. A blooming mess. Mostly because its got a criss cross of various nationalities and religions all pressed together and all who, mostly, don't like each other. Either for recent tension or for old grudges. As such getting a clear answer on what is actually happening is not that easy. Further many of those looking to de-seat the current power are not much better than those currently in power - they just have a different view as to which national/religious group should be in charge.

    Sadly, from what I gather, they've no oil and China and Russia appear to have an interest in preventing/discouraging any western action (and to be honest I don't think that would really help much - its not like there is a good track record there...)
     
  3. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    This is reminding me of the Chechen islamist rebels in Chechnya and Dagestan:


    Which is really bad
     
  4. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Might be a case of using Syria as a military bulwark in the region so as to speak. Simply put, the value of Syria isn't down to oil. Its due to the restraining presence right into Israel's face. That plus we have to keep in mind the very fact that Syria has diplomatic and military ties with Iran and Lebanon=May you live in Interesting Times >.<
     
  5. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Syria's a mess ~ unlike the likes of Libya the opposition is fragmented and without common focus or agenda. With Russia/China still backing the regime, a regime with something like 400,000 under arms it doesn't look like it'll crumble any time soon. The West would love Assad to fall so that the strategic pact with Iran is broken but unless their biggest neighbour (Turkey) directly intervened I just can't see it happening. With Iraq, Lebanon & Jordan all not wanting to get involved any hope of some sort of blockade/embargo is pretty much doomed to failure too. The fear must also be if the regime started to wobble because of economic pressures is that Syria lashes out against Israel to cement/unite home & wider arab support. If Syria broke apart Iraq would be pretty much doomed to fragment too, if it doesn't anyway, with the Sunni/Kurdish North splintering away given the tensions with Maliki & the Shia south.

    With 'moderate' Egypt now looking like voting in a Muslim Brotherhood president how much does the west really want to push this anyway? Is it just impotent hand wringing?
     
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I watched videos like these:



    That made me change my mind about the whole war there and also something that a very good Syrian friend who doesn't favor the regime a lot because of the killings and all that told me,that Assad has a lot of support as well.
    So it's not like in Libya I guess.

    From wikipedia:

    "The Christian communities of Syria, which comprise about 10% of the population,[1] spring from two great traditions. The total number of Christians, not including Iraqi refugee Christians, number about 2.5 million: 1.1 million Greek Orthodox, 700,000 Syrian Orthodox, 200,000 Armenian Christians (Apostolics and Catholics), 400,000 Catholics of various rites and the Church of the East (Assyrian) and Protestant."

    And from what I see in the videos and read on the net,most of Christians and of course the Alawites and some muslims like Shia or even some Sunnis,are pro-Assad because they want the country to be united and because they are afraid that if Assad falls the radical Sunni muslim fighters will kick them out of the country or kill them.

    Personally I am very happy to see that most of the christians in Syria are Orthodox just like Greeks.

    From wikipedia as well:

    Greek Orthodox church

    "The largest Christian denomination in Syria is the Greek Orthodox church, formerly known as the Melkite church after the 5-6th century Christian split, in which they stayed loyal to Constantinople ("melek" = king, is the Aramaic denomination for the Byzantine Emperor). The appellation "Greek" refers to the liturgy they use, sometimes used to refer to the ancestry and ethnicity of the members, however not all members are of Greek ancestry; in fact the Arabic word used is "Rum", which means "Byzantines", or Eastern Romans. Overall, the term is generally used to refer mostly to the Greek liturgy, and the Greek Orthodox denomination in Syria. Arabic is now its main liturgical language."

    Apparently the Patriarch of Moscow asked from Putin to protect the Christians in other countries.


    http://www.theweek.co.uk/russia/syr...sad-can-count-support-russian-orthodox-church


    But I keep seeing all those videos with the brutal killings.But again,on the other hand I keep seeing videos on youtube now that contain the typical bearded mujahideen shouting and holding islamic flags and such groups are supposed to be the "Free Syrian Army".WHAT'S GOING ON THERE?!
     
  7. Ravenheart

    Ravenheart New Member

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    the thing is that even if asad will fall,the massacre will not end.
    syria is ruled by a small "tribe" the Alawi.
    ifthey lose, they willall die.
     
  8. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    There is much support for Assad as well.
     
  9. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    After what has gone on over there, I think it's safe to say Assad is in the wrong. Wether the people that replace him will be any better, is up for debate. I mean look at how well Egypt is doing.
     
  10. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    A lot of people change their minds about the whole FSA thing.It is now clear that the FSA and generally the rebels want to establish an islamic state and the christians,shia and alewites are afraid of the day after Assad falls if he falls and they already talk about sectarian violence.It's true that the rebels have made this into a sectarian war with the vast majority of them being Sunni muslims backed with bases and weapons from Turkey and weapons,money and support from Saudi Arabia and Qatar,from wahabis and foreign mujahedin.

    Assad represents the unity and secular type of Syria and although it wasn't the best "democracy" or most succesful state financially,Syria was one of the most decent,beautiful and safe places in the middle-east.For decades it has been the tough nut that couldn't be cracked by a foreign intervention directly,being pro-Russian and allied with Iran and various Lebanese political parties,creating and supporting a civil war is the West's best way of destroying one of the last defiant countries in the area.
     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I just watched some very disturbing videos of those "Freedom Fighters" beating and torturing people,beheading a man while having his hands tied up and shouting in Arabic Allahu Akbar(God is Great) and Hamdullilah(Thank God).And bragging about executions and this comes after I've watched videos of them throwing corpses off rooftops and executing people who they say "collaborated with the government".

    Well done Western European leaders,well done USA and Turkey!Well done for funding and helping those jihadi animals bring chaos and death to Syria.Bastards...
     
  12. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    Given the situation in Syria escalating to new levels lately, think the thread should be revived.

    I myself fully support Russia's intent to supply Syria with the S-300 system, and the sovereignty of the Syrian people, who obviously support Bashar al-Assad. The rebels are mostly made of foreign motivated mercenaries, who have no respect for the "rebellion" or for their own faith, eating lungs and using chemical weapons...
    No, I think the real reason is that Syria, like Libya, has been a thorn in the US' and Israel's eye for quite some time, and using the Arab spring to pay certain people (Al-Qaeda being one of the leaders of the revolt, and the US supporting them - kind of strange, don't you think?) to start the rebellion so the western powers could have a pretext for invasion.
    Luckily, Russia stands in the way. Ridiculous that the Western powers oppose this, when the S-300 system is literally the definition of a no-fly zone.
    But then Israel couldn't do random attacks on Syrian territory, could they? Heh.

    One thing I found somewhat disconcerting, whether you're a Christian or not:

    Isaiah 17
    Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city,
    And it will be a ruinous heap.

    2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken
    They will be for flocks
    Which lie down, and no one will make them afraid.
    3 The fortress also will cease from Ephraim,
    The kingdom from Damascus,
    And the remnant of Syria;
    They will be as the glory of the children of Israel,”
    Says the Lord of hosts.

    Sounds like a nuclear strike. Which is a real possibility now. Israel does posses nuclear weaponry.
    My my...
     
  13. Crouton

    Crouton New Member

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    I don't know exactly what is happening in Syria, but I know there has been reports of this upsetting Muslims everywhere. I've seen news reports saying that many in the Australian muslim community are getting violent towards each other over the conflict in Syria. And could it have been Syria which made those men in the UK act out and attack that soldier? Even though it's only happening in one country this really seems to be affecting muslims all over the world.
     
  14. Julie

    Julie Well-Known Member

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    The Western media makes it seem like all of the Syrian population is opposed to Assad but of course this is not the case. But what you’re saying is wrong as well, he does not have the support of the majority. There has been a poll recently(published by the Doha Debates) and they found that 55% of Syrians want Assad to stay because they fear civil war, but they do want free elections in the future.
    I find the use of the term ‘the rebels’ very weird. As if it’s a homogeneous group working toward a consistent goal. No It’s not. That the rebels are mostly made of foreign motivated mercenaries is something that Asad has claimed but of course this should be taken with a grain of salt. It’s in his interest to delegitimize his opposition..
    I think the last thing the US wants is an invasion in Syria. Because they know it would get hopelessly messy. You’ve got Israel involved, Iran, Hezbollah, .. and as you say, would they not just help an extremist group to the throne? I don’t know why you’re saying that the US wants a military intervention there? The Arab Spring spread because of opposition groups recognizing an opportunity, I think, I wouldn’t look it much further…
    What do you mean with the S-300 system being the definition of a no-fly zone?
    Lol, you can find all sorts of stuff in the bible! I am concerned about Israel as well, a state with such a high level of militarization is, I think, not too good for the prospects of peace. Though the use of nuclear weapons has become such a taboo that even Israel would not get away with it (while they get away with so much..). The US has already been critiquing Netanyahus ideas of a preemptive strike on Iran and I also think that Israel carrying attacks on Syria has sped up the US’s involvement… I see Israel as the naughty little brother of the US. Now let's hope he doesn't grow up too fast.
     
  15. JIM

    JIM zombie Turncoat

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    answering thusly:
     
  16. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    First let me say I agree 100% with what Blackness said.And what JIM said.

    Now...these "rebels" in Syria have become more and more violent.In the town of Raqqah where the Islamist rebels took over the entire town,they immidiately started imposing sharia law.Here's a video of a public execution they organized:
    Another video where rebels execute people:
    And you probably don't wanna watch this,this is another video of them beheading people:
    Assad supports the peaceful coexistence of Sunni muslims and Christians,Shia muslims and Alewites and Druze.The rebels have shown their true face and they're not "freedom fighters" like they claimed at the beginning.Most of them want to impose sharia law in Syria and create an "islamic caliphate" that they will use to expand their radical sunni islamism to Lebanon and other countries.

    They quickly call someone "shabiha" if they don't like him and kill him.Also....insane fanatic sunni muslim sheikhs like this dog here pass a message of hate and evil to justify their crimes,that Sheikh of theirs Aroor encouraged rape of Syrian women by the rebels saying that..."these women are doing a great service and will go to heaven" if they let the rebels have sex with them!!!

    The retard McCain went to Turkey secretly a few days ago and met with FSA rebel leaders....and started a rhetoric against Assad,more retarded than Bush's rhetoric against Saddam.

    Right now,USA and UK and France want to arm these rebels openly.The world has gone crazy.
     
  17. Julie

    Julie Well-Known Member

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    I wish I would not have clicked on these links. Really awful.

    But on the other end, pro-government troops are also committing atrocities... in al-bayda and baniyas for example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22684359

    I think there should be a general weapon embargo and Russia is wrong in delivering the Syrian government weapons, as are EU countries that are delivering weapons to the rebels... But I think the EU weapon embargo has only been lifted because of Russia's determination to keep providing Assad with weapons.
     
  18. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    But what Russia is doing isn't really affecting the war against the rebels, as they don't have an airforce to begin with. What Russia is doing is preventing a third side (ie. Israel) from entering the war and assisting the rebels. The S-300 is purely defensive.
    As for the atrocities, yes I'm sure Assad's troops aren't daisies, but I doubt that soldiers would wreak havoc on their own homeland for no apparent reason. Remember, the first supposed massacre by the government troops turned out to be done by the rebels, who pretended to be govt troops so the world would come to their aid.
    Furthermore, Syria is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious country which had little problems regarding these facts up to now. The rebels are Islamic extremists.

    The other thing is - Israel openly said that they would have to invade Syria should the rebels win the war, because of the danger of the rebels using Assad's chemical weapon reserves against them.
    I think that's just another lebensraum rhetoric. The irony.

    @Foi: I also think that the latest riots in Turkey are partly caused by the support for the rebels and the US, not just a park. The government of Turkey certainly isn't "democratic" in this respect.

    You're right, I got a bit ahead of myself. The thing is, we can't really trust polls, as there's too much of a chance for bias. Assad offered free elections in 2014 (one point to make - gaddafi offered free elections with international supervision before Libya was invaded. He was denied.) And I think the support for him is only going to rise given what kind of chaos the rebels are causing.
     
  19. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    aYes,I have a Turkish friend on youtube and she's very pro-Assad.The FSA rebels did some bad things in some villages and towns near the Turkish-Syrian borders and the local Turkish population rose against them,in reply if I remember correctly,the rebels put some bombs against the people.

    Julie,I've seen some very brutal videos of the soldiers or pro-Assad militia beating detainees and suspects savagely and I've seen them beat some rebels pretty badly.But in some cases these were revenge beating and executions because for example the rebels had executed some 30 or so members of a pro-government tribe in Aleppo and the rest of the tribe members wanted to get revenge.

    I've also seen a rebel suspect beaten savagely to reveal where they hid the weapons....in most of the video he was saying "I don't know,I don't know" and denied stuff...then he reveals where the guns are.

    But like Blackness said there have also been a lot of attrocities comitted by the rebels and blamed on the government.There is also a propaganda war going on by the rebels.For example I've a pic of the Syrian Army on a helicopter that was photoshoped to look as if the rebels had a helicopter...lol.And there is an infamous video of drug mafia decapitations with a chainsaw that happened in Mexico months or years ago and it was taken and re-posted by the rebels in Syria to look as if the army killed the people.

    Julie you haven't seen not even half of the videos the islamist rebels have uploaded.I've seen a video where they dragged a man tied up and blindfolded out in the street at night and they were slitting his throat like a sheep while shouting "Allahu Akbar!" and "Alhamdullilah" meaning "God is great" and "Thank God!"

    I've seen a video where they give a child a sword and have him decapitate a man and they decapitate another one in the same video_One of the recent ones that I watched had a rebel behead a man with something that looked like a sword of big machette. Here's one of the videos:
    They want to impose strict sharia law and in some places in Syria they have already started destroying alcohol and forcing women to wear burqas.An article said that a few days ago they massacred an entire Greek Orthodox Christian village near the Syrian-Lebanese borders

    The following video is NOT GRAPHIC,take a look at it and comment it please...it's way these people want to turn the country back to the 7th century AD



    Ironic how they always shout "In the name of Allah the Merciful the Compassionate" right before they kill someone...
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  20. Julie

    Julie Well-Known Member

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    They are also giving offensive weapons.


    UN observers have confirmed that atrocities are committed by both sides. Of course there is a propaganda war going on as well. One side trying to put blame on the other. The extremist views of some of these rebels is indeed very worrisome, though what do you want to do about it? I don't think giving them weapons is the answer.