The Prince That Was Promised/R + L = J Theories - WARNING: SPOILERS

Discussion in 'A Song of Ice and Fire' started by Appaliq, Feb 7, 2006.

  1. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    Ok, Crusader. Make me a believer. ;) (I'm not trying to pester you, just interesting to find a new viewpoint)
     
  2. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    Ha Ha funny.



    About the Whole R+L=J theory, i guess i can be more specific because theres a spoiler warning and this is the second post.
    But let me make myself clear, I am not against this theory, if fact i support it, it makes sense if you think back and i will certainly be rereading at least AGOT for the reaosn of checking it.
    My naggingness stems from being ntagonistic towards LDH about rhaegar being a bastard for rape and murder, kidnap and imprisonment (before i heard the theory) and also from all ive heard there still isnt really anything that makes me like rhaegar for any reason at all.
    the point I was making though is the face that the rhaegar theory for the time being is pure speculation and from the evidence we've seen its still equally possible that it was rape (though i dont think so, im just making the point, antagonism again).





    Theres also a point i think we should add to the debate: Why the hell do you like rhaegar anyway, he just seems so boring a character from what we've read. The good characters have flaws, intrigue, and good personalities, rhaegar seems just mopey. Also i like robert so thats some reason to think rhaegar is a jackass.

    Also i think theres a good chance dany is the prince that was promised.
     
  3. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    I think the girls have a tendency to like Rhaegar (and I admit it - I'm one of them) because he is literally the knight in shining armor.

    We're quick to accept the Rhaegar/Lyanna theory because the story is just so damn romantic. Handome prince falls in love with woman, declares her beauty to the world, sweeps her away to their own private place, fights a battle for her love (Robert vs. Rhaegar - ok ok, I know it probably wasn't over Lyanna), dies with her name on his lips.
    I always thought of him at a young Eddard Stark + ego and passion.

    It would be an interesting though - if we found out that Robert was right all this time. Perhaps Rhaegar was a bastard. Maybe he wasn't passionate, but instead he was fanatical. He may have loved Lyanna, but maybe he didn't "whisk her away". Maybe he did kidnap her. The Targaryens were good at being crazy. But if that were the case I'm thinking we wouldn't have heard as much positive stuff about him. Selmy comparing Dany not to Viserys, but Rhaegar. Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels. And so on...
     
  4. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    No no, thats exactly what it was about.

    Y'see I get annoyed when people like LDH say bad things about robert, but hes a good guy, just depressed.

    He had aerys try and kill him and his best friend, aerys ended up killing friends nd relatived. Also Rhaegar stole his 'true love' away. Robert started a war not because he wanted to be king, he did it for Lyanna. Also he's the knight in shining armour too, his description before he got fat was a heroic one, and he did best rhaegar himself, and fight an entire war just for Lyanna.

    The problem is she died, and he got stuck with cersei who was a frigid b*tch (at least by his standards), hence him being depressed so getting fat and drunk. I cant understand why people would dislike him, at least feel pity for him, he fought an entire war for his true love and got the queen of skanks instead, and you call Rhaegar the prince charming, he's just a mopey emo ponce. Rhaegar took everything robert ever wanted and left him nothing, and you still like him.

    Also ned likes Robert and cersei doesnt, which one will you side with hmmn?

    theres my side of the arguement.
     
  5. K'shar

    K'shar Darth Pumpkin

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    Mopey emo prince. i love that. thats perfect. I don't understand why everyone loves Rhaegar so much either. At least I can understand why people dislike Robert. It's just the reverse of Jaime. Robert started out good and turned into a child killing (gave the order for Dany and her baby to be killed and said not a word bout the murder of Elia and her children) drunkard of a douche. Robert is not a good guy. He was at one point and then fell in with the devil in a red dress. I agree completely the whole reason Robert was in that war to begin with was Lyanna. By the time he and Rhaegar faced off it was to the point where to much had happened for either of them to back out.
     
  6. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    what exactly has he done wrong though? he realised his mistake about dany and told ned to give the order to stop, he even accepted his death as punishment for the order in the first place.

    And he couldnt do anything about elia, but he damn well didnt give the order, if any targaryen survived it put his life at risk for the rebellion and could easily begin another one. It solidified the throne for him, which although he didnt want, he coundt back out of after the war was over. He was only upset over rhaegars kidnapping (and assumed rape and murder) or his one true love so thats why he dislikes targaryens. The point is he lost everything and has been in the bottle ever since. And as far as i know he never really warmed up to cersei (hey, he is the only one who's given her a good slapping so far). He killed no children, and would you stay sober i you hated being king, your only love was stolen and killed and you end up with cersei who hates you? I think not
     
  7. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    OK, first off...


    AFFC SPOILERS: highlight: Dany is the Prince(ss) who was promised; Maester Aemon said that a misunderstanding arose from the texts and that dragons are neither male nor female (pretty sure, anyway, I'm quoting this from my head), and therefore Dany is in fact the PwwP.

    Second:
    Reasons I like Rhaegar
    1) I agree that there isn't too much concrete evidence, but more like little impressions. Besides Robert (whom I personally dislike), everyone else seems to have some respect, if not liking, for him, including Ned, who I trust more than Robert.
    2) Ned once mentioned to Bran (in CoK, I believe, don't have the exact quote though, no book :mad:) that the Kingsguard were once great men but are no longer. He seemed to have great respect for Aerys' Kingsguard (besides Jaime, anyway), and Ser Arthur Dayne was known to be Rhaegar's closest friend. Again, Ned respected the Sword of the Morning; therefore, so do I.
    3) No character (besides Robert, who has some personal issues with Rhaegar) actually said anything bad against him. Ned never said that Rhaegar raped Lyanna; that was all stuff we heard from Robert (and rumors), isn't it? (Again, I'm unsure on this point, because I don't have GoT right now).
    4) When Robert was railing against Rhaegar, I'm pretty sure that Eddard would have joined him in that if Rhaegar had raped Lyanna. I'm also pretty sure that if that was true, Ned would have demanded the right to fight Rhaegar in Robert's place; after all, Ned was her brother, while Robert would have only been betrothed (and not yet wedded) to her.

    Reasons I dislike Robert:
    1) Yes, Aerys was crazy, but Rhaegar, from all reports, was not. Robert should have just let Rhaegar take the throne instead of letting his personal feelings get in the way.
    2) Robert was a courageous warrior, but that didn't make him a good king.
    3) He seems to have this penchant for beating women. Yes, I hate Cersei, but in a way, I pity her a little after reading AFFC - though not much.
    4) He tried to kill Dany (although he regretted this later), and didn't think much of it at the time.


    I'll post more stuff later, but I'm still feeling sick.
     
  8. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    Robert let rhaegar take the throne? after he stole his love, which is indeed the real start of the war, not aerys' mad ravings (nice guy rhaegar, starts the war himself)

    And name a woman he has beaten besides cersei, and you KNOW she deserves it.

    He repented the order liek i said above and kingship is no reason to judge a man.




    Also about the rape thing, it wasnt till after the war when ned went to the tower of joy that they found out what happened to lyanna, and ned wouldnt have even urged robert to fight nor made war if it was all lovey-dovey like you think. The truth wasnt found out till after the war, so thats why robert did the fighting.

    And in your points about liking him, it all suggests nothing either way except for the respect thing, there no positive thing in there to like. for K'shar, jaime is respected in the books for being the best swordsman ever but that doesnt mean he thinks him any less of a PAW respect for skills means little elsewhere. There nothing there to like in my opinion. And taking everything from robert, starting a war, the possible rape of lyanna, the mopey emo sadness hes described as having are all reasons not to like him
     
  9. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    I'd argue, but it'd take too long, and I've already bloody invented twenty typos as it is.

    My puppet's gonna have to take my place for now. ;) (And just you wait until all the Rhaegar-fanatics come down upon you like the wrath of God.... :D)
     
  10. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    I'll just smash em with a might warhammer, that seemed to work well enough on the real rhaegar.
     
  11. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    Weeeeeellllllll... when you really get down to it, there's quite a few Rhaegar fans on aSoIaF, and everyone knows that we girls count for at least ten guys... ;) :p :D
     
  12. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

    Im sure theres plenty of people with dislike or indifference towards the git to balance it out.
     
  13. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    Not that many aSoIaF fans in TFF in the first place. :p There's enough of us to overwhelm you. :p

    And it's not just the girls, I'll have you know that Elan's on our side too (hell, he's the one who converted me in the first place! :p)

    And if/when we turn out to be right, I'm going to laugh at you for an hour. ;)
     
  14. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    Ah oh, Kshar is here. I think this is officially a battle of the sexes.

    So, everyone has valid points. But I still stand by my "it's too damn romantic" view. Rhaegar was a dreamboat. It's not much, but it's all I got. Sure I feel some pity for Robert. But he turned into such a slob. A big, fat ex-warrior who spends too much time in whore houses. You can't blame all of that on Lyanna/Rhaegar. Robert was a sex fiend before he met Lyanna, and she knew it. What's the quote? "'Robert will never keep to one bed,' Lyanna had told him...'Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature.'"
    Also, I think LDH has a good point about Ned. How would Robert know that Rhaegar had raped Lyanna? My guess is that rumors were flying around at court. Surely Ned would have known about them too.

    My guess is that Martin will reveal all in time. Maybe we can look back and laugh at ourselves. :)

    PS - Get well soon, LDH.
     
  15. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    Thanks, Appaliq :) And I agree with her argument.

    I like your user title, btw. :p
     
  16. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    LDH, i never said rhaegar definately did the raping, i suggested it was possible, and i even say above the original theory is more likely.

    But thats not the basis of my dislike for him. so lauhg for an hour, bit itll be crazy-person laughing cause i wont be wrong.
     
  17. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    lol, Thanks LDH. See, Cru really is on our side. It's just in his nature to be mean to girls. ;)
     
  18. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    Yeah, I've noticed. :p
     
  19. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    actually its to be mean to everyone.


    no but seriously, i do like to provide the voice of, if not reason, then arguement regardless of facts.

    But still my opinion is:

    Robert good, rhaegar bad
     
  20. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    Awwww... can't you take just a little romance? Let us romantics have our dreams in peace. :p