The one-sided truth...

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Foinikas, Dec 17, 2008.

  1. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    This is interesting as well:

    1. Rigged NumbersBelgrade-based historian and researcher, Milivoje Ivanisevic, who has been documenting Yugoslavian civil war casualties for more than a decade, has recently challenged the claims in a new booklet, “The Srebrenica Identity Card,” which documents hundreds of bodies buried at the Srebrenica Memorial that were not killed in July 1995, when the alleged genocide took place, including cases of people who died natural deaths a full 13 years before the event took place.

    The newest evidence offered by Ivanisevic indicates a number of those buried at the Srebrenica Memorial Complex not only were not killed in July 1995, but actually died much earlier, even in the early 1980s — more than 10 years before the civil war in Yugoslavia even started.


    2. Dead Men VotingAccording to Ivanisevic, as of March 2007, more than 12 years after the event, a total of 2,442 bodies have been buried at the Memorial. Among those, a total of 914, or over 37 percent, were on the voting lists for the 1996 elections in Bosnia — over a year after the alleged “genocide.” The voting lists themselves were approved and checked by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe [OSCE], which supervised the elections.

    3. “Massacred” Muslims Who Died of Natural Causes
    A second even more significant find involves the fact that “at least 100 people” buried at the Memorial died of natural causes. Ivanisevic claims that the numbers would be even larger if he’d been allowed access to the death books in Srebrenica and the surrounding towns. Nevertheless, several names with dates of birth, death and place of demise are provided: Fetahija (Nazif) Hasanovic, b. 1955 — d. Dec.15, 1996, Srebrenica; Sukrija (Amil) Smajlovic, b.1946 — d. May 2,1996, Zaluzje; Maho (Suljo) Rizvanovic, b.1953 — d. Jan. 3,1993, Glogova; Mefail (meho) Demirovic, b.1970 — d. May 10, 1992, Krasanovici; Redzic (Ahmet) Asim, b.1949 — d. April 22, 1992, Bratunac.


    4. Alleged “Srebrenica Victims” Killed Before Srebrenica
    Thirdly, Ivanisevic charges that several hundred soldiers as well as civilians were transferred to the Srebrenica Memorial from other cemeteries and reburied, with Muslim burial rituals. One of these is the body of Hamed (Hamid) Halilovic ), transferred from the nearby cemetery in Kazani, who apparently died a full 13 years before the Srebrenica “genocide.” Other bodies transferred from Kazani to the Srebrenica Memorial include those of Osman (Ibro) Halilovic ), Nurija (Smajo) Memisevic ), Salih (Saban) Alic ), Mujo (Hasim) Hadzic ), Ferid (Ramo) Mustafic ) and Hajrudin (Ismet) Cvrk ).

    Fourth, using captured records of the Bosnian Muslim Army, Ivanisevic lists more than a dozen names of soldiers whose families were granted housing and social benefits due to families of soldiers killed in action before Nov. 11, 1993, when the documents were captured by Bosnian Serb army forces.

    Fifth, on the basis of similarly captured documents, Ivanisevic provides several dozen names of Bosnian Muslim army fighters killed before March 7, 1994.


    5. Jihad Butchers Turned Into Innocent Victims
    Ivanisevic goes on to provide names of Bosnian Muslim soldiers buried at the Srebrenica Memorial who were implicated in numerous massacres of Serbian civilians in the vicinity between , in which a total of over 3,000 Serbs were killed. Interestingly, the commander of the Srebrenica Bosnian army forces, Naser Oric, was given a two-year sentence by the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia, or ICTY, in June 2006 for his participation in these killings, some of which he captured on video and showed to Washington Post reporter John Pomfret, who visited him inside the “U.N. Safe Zone” in 1994. [And to Bill Schiller of Canada’s Toronto Star]



    Srebrenica Research Group Demystifies the HoaxIn the summer of 2005, on the 10-year anniversary of the event, the “Srebrenica Research Group,” composed of mostly American and British media and academic figures, as well as former U.N. civil officials and military observers with ex-Yugoslavia experience, put up a website in which the entire “Srebrenica massacre” account was reconsidered and demystified. Instead of the 7-8,000 figure, U.N. officials and U.S. Congress experts were quoted giving figures of “700-800,” “the low hundreds,” “about 2,000 Muslims and Serbs total,” etc. Henry Wieland, head of the U.N. Human Rights Commission, who spent days interviewing Srebrenica refugees in July 1995, is quoted as saying that he did not find “anyone who’d seen any atrocity committed with their own eyes.”All the above from http://www.byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2007/05/srebrenica-hoax.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2008
  2. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    There is no reason to quote in bold, Foi.

    Anyway, I want you to take a look at this and tell me the difference.

    I know about claims that a lot of Muslim men have survived Srebrenica, though they have been as hard to substantiat (from where I stand) as claims to the contrary. And let's be honest, if there has been political pressure to up-play the Srebrenica massacre in the West; the contrary is certainly the case for Belgrade.

    About the Srebrenica Research Group; it seems to have been founded by a US professor, who has sought publicity to downplay general atrocities which have been condemnde by the Western world long before Srebrenica took place. I would say that for that reason, we can't accept it as independant.

    The only interesting voice against the general theory I've been able to track is that of Phillip Corwin, who held a high UN office in the region at the time. He seems to be convinced it concerns "a 1000 persons at the most", mostly members of the Muslim militia. I have heared about his claim before and I hear his voice - though it's hard to choose his lonely voice above the general opinion. Of course, he has been debunked from other official offices - but that was only to be expected, whichever way the truth bends.

    But again, you don't seem to react to evidence to the contrary. What exactly do you make of Sonja Karadzic's claims?

    Anyway; I am glad that you provide a counter voice against the popular one. Usually, there is always value in relativating a situation. However, I think that you accept any evidence à decharge too easily, Foi. It seems that you eargerly listen to all the evidence agains the generally accepted truth, and suddenly lose all the criticism that fuelled your search into the counter argument.
     
  3. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I have many more sources links and articles to show you,but I didn't post all of them because I didn't want to get you dizzy with links and huge articles,but I can do it if you want.

    Oh by the way,the bold is just to stress that something is important and/or taken from another source.Although sometimes I don't bold a sentence or paragraph :p
     
  4. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Hmmm... clearly someone is lying, Foi. And it's there that we have to become very careful, especially since we know at least hundreds of people died.

    We have to verify sources, we can't be careless about what to accept as truth anymore. I have no doubt you have lots of sources, but all sources seem to contradict, I can only conclude that most of them are wrong about the whole story. And you seem to make no effort whatsoever in that direction.

    But still, you don't react to posts I make. You only act by providing us with sources (mostly in bold ;)).

    You still haven't reacted to Sonja Karadzic's claims; you still haven't reacted to this; you haven't reacted to my counter-claims about your sources. And you haven't done anything to prevent you from looking like a mindless Serbia backer.

    Of course, there's always room for criticsm. But you are remarbable uncritical about the criticism you have. I'd strongly advice you to do some background on the sources you use, Foi.
     
  5. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Buddy I'll tell you one thing.For years,the thing everybody knew was that evil Serbs performed among many others,one more massacre,a terrible one in Srebrenica.That was and has been the granted all these years.Just like that they were the bad guys of the war.

    Now I know that when America and NATO are involved,along with their own media(the western ones)there's something fishy going on....Just like with Iraq,Afghanistan etc.

    So I'm just giving you the other side of the story.Which can be different.And the last few years more westerners seem to accept that this story wasn't what the western media exactly presented it like.
     
  6. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Well, as Blackness pointed out, the Serbs started the wars, whether rightfully or not. I don't agree with him on them being the only party but hey.

    All right, point taken. The course of events in Srebrenica isn't fully agreed upon.
    But wy did you post it in debate if you are so decided about not debating it?
     
  7. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Because we usually post serious or intellectual matters on the debate section even if it is to inform people apart from also discussing them.

    For the Serbs to start the war...I don't know.I know it was 1 country...Yugoslavia...federate yes,but when others started to want to become independent and people lived in other people's territories then that would create problems eventually.

    And it's really something for all the people in the world to be very mindful of because right now in the world in a lot of places even in Europe and elsewhere in the Western world we've got people of an ethnic or religious group consisting a majority in a location while being a minority in the country.You know what I mean?It's really tricky.

    One more thing to look after for example is that Turkey's diplomat(of the Turkish consulate)in Kosovo who worked for about 10 years for Kosovo's independence has been recently moved from Turkey to the northeastern part of Greece called Thrace where the muslim minority is concentrated.Now is that coincedence or....?
     
  8. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    This is a very interesting video that I found on youtube.It's by Skynews.


    I hear your comments.
     
  9. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Sorry for reviving this old thread,but I must post these two videos,I feel as if I have the obligation to do it and I also want to do it.These two are a must watch for people who are interested in learning some more stuff about the "other side" of things.These two videos with interviews and evidence talk about and prove in a brief and simple manner how the West through propaganda and machinations clearly presented the Serbs as the bad guys and the Muslims as the good guys.




    I really will appreciate it if you watch them carefully from beginning to end.

    Thank you.
     
  10. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Seen it.

    The first video is mildly interesting, although it didn't bring much news for me. The second sounded like blatant Serbian propaganda.

    If it is any interest to you, here you will find an independant Dutch report on Srebrenica commissioned by its gouvernment. The gouvernment didn't survive the report. And recent study shows that the objevtive of the writers was to find the truth, whatever that meant - and whatever the consequences. I tend to trust it over a badly narrated YouTube report.

    The Serbian gouvernment, in the mean time, issued a statement of regret over the actions in Srebrenica last month.

    On the Muslims; Bloody of course they weren't just innocent bystanders. You need a concrete and religious believe in the natural concept of good and bad to maintain that. Neither were the Croatians. Nor were the Albanians in Kosovo. But, even taking this into consideration, the Serbs moved up a notch when it comes to initial cruelty; even though you have to accept that this is sometimes the standard on the Balkan.
     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I've watched Dutch documentaries(which always accuse the Serbs)and I'm sick of the whole "Crusade against Serbia" cause the Netherlands have set out for since the end of the war.

    However it is funny how most of the evidence that discredit Western propaganda and claims during and after the war,is ignored by far by the Western public.More and more evidence come out that prove Serbs weren't the monsters depicted in the media during the war.

    The Serbian goverment HAD to apologize due to political reasons(EU membership mostly)the people are totally against it and angry about it as far as I know.

    The biggest conductors of attrocities in these wars were the Bosniaks and the Albanians(during and after the Kosovo war).The aggressors were NOT the Serbs,they didn't start the war,they tried to prevent it(check out Karadzic's speech in the pariament in 1991)Izetbegovic knew there was a war coming and he kept on disregarding the Serbian factor and believing the West would help.When that didn't come fast and BiH was losing the war,they turned to staged massacres and propaganda to gain international attention.

    As for Kosovo....eh...it's undeniable nowadays that the Albanians were the ones who performed an "ethnic cleansing".Especially(and ironically)after the UN settled on Kosovo to bring peace.
     
  12. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    To be honest, I wasn't talking about documentaries. I was talking about scientific research. Unbiased people setting out to find the truth. But the popular opinion against the Serbs must be understandable for The Netherlands at least, after the fall of Srebrenica.

    I think this doesn't hold true anymore for Dutch television. War criminals of all denominations are getting their fair share of attention. You'd be surprised, actually.

    That being said, Srebrenica does get most attention. Simply because the Dutch were heavily involved. Whether you like it or not, Serbs were the culprits in that one.

    So, basically, the apologies are void? How is that helping the Serbs? How does that plead in their favour?



    I am sure there's a UN report with numbers on that one? It's quite a claim you make there, and I want to see it backed by numbers.

    ... followed by the forming of Republica Srbska? In an arbitrary way that mostly suited Belgrade? Preferrably to be rid of Croatian and Muslim presence? That's all made up?

    And as far as the Karadzic speeches in Belgrade go; I would call those hate speeches, and they only aggravated the matters. They were autocratic, nationalist, populist and actually led to the image he later obtained as the tyrant of the balkan.

    Now, that's a one-sided truth...

    Ethnic cleansing happened on both sides. However, and this is important, it seems the Albanians started - and the Serbs retaliated ("protected their citizens"). I am unable to judge whether the decision to bomb Serbia and intervene was the right course of events, with this knowledge, however.

    I do agree, however, that Kosovo was largely rid of Serbian presence whilst Kosovo was under UN intervention. The Serbs, basically, lost that war. Moreso then the Serbs (people of Serbian ethnicity) deserved.
     
  13. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Why wasn't Alija Izetbgovic and Franjo Tudman,or forget about Tudman,let's talk about Izetbegovic,why wasn't he declared a war criminal after the war?When the research on his share was about to begin,well he died and he "got away" with it.Far less convictions and accusations were made against Croats and Muslims and Albanians.

    What you only heard on TV was about "butchers" of the Balkans Mladic and Karadzic(put Milosevic aside).

    Who ever talks about the Muslim attrocities?Nobody!

    Come on,let's face it that Srebrenica was a hoax.An invented "genocide" that was to draw the attention of international opinion and have NATO act against Serbs.



    Morillon: There are No Good Guys or Bad Guys

    The objective of the Bosnian Muslim faction was to induce US military intervention on the Muslim side. Pursuant to this policy, the Bosnian Muslim faction engaged in propaganda, staged massacres, killed Bosnian Muslim civilians to garner sympathy, and used civilian hostages or shields to further its propaganda of victimization. Morillon, Lewis MacKenzie, Sir Michael Rose, and other UN officials acknowledged this objective. Western media reporting during the civil war in Bosnia had one single goal, to get the US to fight on the side of the Bosnian Muslim faction. The only way this could be done was to present the civil war as a "genocide". This is why the US government and the corporate media relied on genocide/Holocaust propaganda in Bosnia. Only a genocide propaganda motif would do the trick. This is why the Bosnian civil war became associated with the Holocaust. It was a US propaganda stunt, it was part of the US inforwar strategy. In Iraq, it was the nonexistent and phony Weapons of Mass Destruction. In Bosnia, it was the nonexistent and phony genocide or Holocaust propaganda. In both instances, this propaganda was orchestrated, planned, and coordinated by the US government and the corporate media. Everyone knew this. Milosevic quoted Morillon's statement that he had made in Paris: "The aim of the Presidency from the very outset was to ensure the intervention of the international forces for their own benefit, and this is one of the reasons why they never were inclined to engage in talks." It was the Bosnian Muslim faction that opposed peace. Pursuant to the policy of provoking intervention by the US, Muslims would not allow a single Muslim to leave Sarajevo for propaganda purposes as human shields, to be sacrifices in the interest of Muslim propaganda. Similarly, Bosnian Muslim civilians in Srebrenica were not allowed to be evacuated because the Bosnian Muslim leadership wanted to use them as human shields for propaganda purposes.
    Morillon acknowledged that Bosnian Muslim forces shelled his residence during the war. Such actions convinced him that there were no good or bad guys in Bosnia. The US propaganda, however, relied on the simplistic and self-serving characterization of aggressors and victims, good guys and bad guys. Morillon stated: "A little time after that I received an American senator and he asked me, 'Where are the good guys?' And I said unfortunately there are no good guys and bad guys; they're all bad guys. Caught in this infernal cycle they had no other means on all sides."


    Concerning Srebrenica:

    In his testimony, Morillon confirmed that the Srebrenica enclave was being used as a military base of operations by the Bosnian Muslim Army under the command of Naser Oric. Oric himself contributed to the humanitarian crisis by hit and run guerrilla attacks that targeted Serbian villages. Morillon explained: "These enclaves were partly occupied by forces, Muslim forces under the command of Naser Oric, who engaged in regular fights. So the possibilities of getting supplies of food for the population from Bosnia, which it was hoped would come both from Belgrade and from Split through Mostar were considerably hampered and hindered, and the Bosnian Serbs were telling us that it was due to the fighting which took place."



    --I'll give you the link for further reading but I'll skip the details and go right to the conclusion-- http://www.apisgroup.org/article.html?id=1898


    Conclusion

    Philippe Morillon's testimony at the Milosevic trial at The Hague showed that Naser Oric's troops tortured, mutilated, and executed Bosnian Serb soldiers and civilians. These were flagrant war crimes and violations of the Geneva Conventions for which neither Naser Oric nor Alija Izetbegovic nor Sefer Halilovic were charged by Carla Del Ponte. Morillon revealed that the fall of Srebrenica in 1995 was the "direct reaction" to the massacres and mass murders that Oric had committed against Bosnian Serbs in the Srebrenica pocket. The US propaganda claim that "7,000 Muslim men and boys" were "slaughtered" at Srebrenica is not based on factual evidence. It is a propaganda allegation of the US government meant to place the blame for the Bosnian civil war on the Bosnian Serb faction, when in fact the US government fomented the war. A prosecution witness that testified on Wednesday, February 11, 2004, a Bosnian Serb soldier who participated in the capture of Srebrenica, showed that much of the Bosnian Muslim casualties were sustained when elements of the 28th Infantry Division sought to break out from the Bosnian Serb encirclement. The 28th Division was seeking to withdraw to Muslim-held Tuzla. Many of the Bosnian Muslim troops were killed during this breakout. But many Bosnian Muslims troops managed to withdraw to Tuzla. US government and media propaganda implies that the Bosnian Serb forces executed unarmed and defenseless civilians. But this is patently untrue. As photographs clearly demonstrated, Oric's forces wore military fatigues and uniforms, wore military insignia, and possessed AK-47s, artillery, grenade launchers, anti-tank missiles, tanks, and helicopters. These were not civilians, but armed combatants, soldiers, killers who had murdered Serbian civilians and burned entire villages. The Bosnian Muslims had military formations in Srebrenica. The fall of Srebrenica in 1995 was a military disaster for the Bosnian Muslim Army forces led by Naser Oric, but it was not a "massacre" of civilians.

    What came out during Morillon's testimony was that Bosnian Muslims and Croats engaged in "mass murdering" of Serbs even before the outbreak of war. The first victims in the Bosnian civil war were Serbian civilians. Moreover, Morillon revealed that Izetbegovic sought to use Muslim civilians as shields in Sarajevo and Srebrenica to garner sympathy and garner propaganda points. Morillon showed that the real siege of Sarajevo started when the Muslims surrounded and attacked the JNA, killing the JNA soldiers as they were withdrawing. The Bosnian Muslim faction violated its own agreement by attacking the troops. Such premeditated and wanton murder only provoked a corresponding response. But clearly the Bosnian Muslim faction provoked the violence.

    The Bosnian Muslim "mass graves" have not been found to substantiate the massacre charges/allegations. There were many Bosnian Serb mass graves in the Srebrenica area. Naser Oric's forces had murdered hundreds if not thousands of Bosnian Serb civilians in the Srebrenica area. At least 50 Bosnian Serb villages in eastern Bosnia were burned to the ground by Oric's forces. Morillon's testimony showed that the fall of Srebrenica in 1995 was the "direct reaction" to Naser Oric's real massacres in 1992 and 1993.



    You're smart,you know it's all politics.It's similar to "give us milosevic,we'll help you,give us karadzic,we'll help you more,accept the massacre maybe you'll get in the EU".




    "You want to take Bosnia and Herzegovina down the same highway to hell and suffering that Slovenia and Croatia are travelling. Do not think that you will not lead Bosnia and Herzegovina into hell, and do not think that you will not perhaps lead the Muslim people into annihilation, because the Muslims cannot defend themselves if there is war - How will you prevent everyone from being killed in Bosnia and Herzegovina?"

    That sounds like a warning or even a plead,not as a threat.When you know there is a huge part of the population,that disagrees with an "independence" plan,when you know that this could bring the entire country in a war in which YOUR people(Izetbegovic's people)wouldn't stand a chance,why would you insist on doing it?



    There is a part that talks about that in one of the videos I showed you(the second I think)however if I find more information on that I will provide you with some.


    I'll come back to that a bit later with stats and quotes.
     
  14. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Nope.

    This is what I want to say about it:

    exerpt from the NIOD report on Srebrenica
    In the account of the journey to Tuzla given in Chapter 1, we have read that the Bosnian Serbs took a large number of prisoners on the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje on 12 and 13 July 1995. One estimate puts the number of men from Srebrenica held on the Nova Kasaba football field at between 1500 and 3000. Witnesses who gave evidence before the Yugoslavia Tribunal estimated that there were also between 1000 and 4000 men being held in a field near Sandici. Other Bosnian sources talk of 'a few thousand men' in a field near Sandici and of 1500 men in the Nova Kasaba stadium. The estimates are therefore highly approximate. The exact number of people held at these two locations and elsewhere is impossible to state with any accuracy. The intercepted communications suggest that the Bosnian Serbs were holding between 3000 and 4000 prisoners by 15 July. This number would have increased over the ensuing days. The intercepts suggested that some 4000 to 5000 thousand people had been killed by 18 July. In all probability, this figure referred only to the victims of organized executions and did not include casualties of the fighting with the column on the march. Major Franken was told by VRS Colonel Jankovic that the VRS had taken 6000 prisoners of war. As far as he could later recall, Franken believes this statement to have been made on 14 July Given his position as Intelligence Chief on the VRS general staff, it is reasonable to assume that Jankovic was well informed. A further group of men, numbering about 1000, had been separated from the women, children and elderly in Potocari and were taken to Bratuna (see Chapter 4). There, they were grouped with the men taken from the column. The Bosnian Serbs made no effort to keep the two groups of prisoners apart. It is probable that Jancovic's figure of 6000 included the Potocari contingent.​

    The entire chapter is found here
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2010
  15. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Well, I know you're going to be struggling about this one, so let me take the liberty of making another quote.

    To give some perspective: the NIOD report contains some 10 reports on executions following the capturing of muslims after the Fall of Srebrenica

    Warning: graphical language

    It may have been due to the lack of resources that the VRS did not remove the men from the school until 16 July. The prisoners were loaded onto buses, their hands tied behind their backs, and transported to the 'Branjevo Military Farm' ( the farm bred pigs to supply the VRS). The prisoners were lined up in groups of ten and then shot. The 10th Sabotage Detachment, under the direct command of the General Staff of the VRS, carried out these executions. During the morning of 16 July, Drazen Erdemovic and other members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment were given orders for the executions, and proceeded via the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade to the Branjevo Military Farm. They were accompanied by two officers of the Drina Corps' Military Police and a Lieutenant Colonel without any distinguishing insignia, but the latter departed again shortly after their arrival. About half an hour after his departure, the first busloads of prisoners began to arrive. The Military Police escorted the buses (which belonged to Centrotrans Sarajevo and Drinatrans Zvornik) and supervised the disembarkation of the prisoners in groups of ten, and their last steps to the site of the execution. The first shots were fired at 10.00 hours and the entire procedure was completed by 15.00 hours. An additional ten VRS soldiers arrived to assist some time between 13.00 and 14.00 hours. It was said that they had come from Bratunac, which could also be deduced from the fact that they appeared to know some of the Muslims. Forensic examination of the ammunition cartridges found here failed to establish any similarity with the rifling marks on cartridges found elsewhere. It therefore seems likely that these were not the troops which formed the firing squads at other execution sites.

    Drazen Erdemovic, later convicted of war crimes by the Tribunal, was one of the VRS soldiers active here. According to his account, ‘the men in front of us were ordered to turn their backs. When those men turned their backs to us, we shot at them. We were given orders to shoot.' Erdemovic reports that only one of the victims was in military uniform. Another had put up some resistance and had attempted to escape, but the remainder had shown full compliance. On occasion, the members of the Sabotage Detachment displayed remarkable cruelty. If they happened to recognize one of the prisoners, he would be humiliated and beaten before being put to death. Machine guns were used, which tended to cause wounds rather than being immediately fatal, thus serving to prolong the suffering. On this point, one of the survivors recalls:

    ‘When they opened fire, I threw myself on the ground. (…) And one man fell on my head. I think that he was killed on the spot. And I could feel the hot blood pouring over me. (…) I could hear one man crying for help. He was begging them to kill him. And they simply said “Let him suffer. We'll kill him later.”’ ​

    Between 1000 and 1200 men were killed at this site on 16 July. The killing continued the next day. Aerial photographs taken on 17 July show a large number of bodies around the Branjevo Military Farm site and the tracks of an earthmoving machine which had been collecting the bodies together. In the mass grave at the Branjevo Military Farm, the bodies of 132 men were later discovered. These victims ranged in age from 15 to 61. At least 130 had died as the result of gunfire. It was possible to establish that thirteen men were from Srebrenica. Another grave, known as 'Chanceri Road 12', proved to be a secondary grave connected with the Branjevo Military Farm. Here, 174 bodies were found. In other words, only a small proportion of the total number of bodies were ever discovered.
    Exerpt from: Srebrenica report, NIOD. Part IV, chapter 2.11

    Original can be found here
     
  16. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    As a reply to the above I give you my previous posts in the previous pages,quotes like this for example:

    Srebrenica Research Group Demystifies the HoaxIn the summer of 2005, on the 10-year anniversary of the event, the “Srebrenica Research Group,” composed of mostly American and British media and academic figures, as well as former U.N. civil officials and military observers with ex-Yugoslavia experience, put up a website in which the entire “Srebrenica massacre” account was reconsidered and demystified. Instead of the 7-8,000 figure, U.N. officials and U.S. Congress experts were quoted giving figures of “700-800,” “the low hundreds,” “about 2,000 Muslims and Serbs total,” etc. Henry Wieland, head of the U.N. Human Rights Commission, who spent days interviewing Srebrenica refugees in July 1995, is quoted as saying that he did not find “anyone who’d seen any atrocity committed with their own eyes.”

    On a side note,there is finally justice to be found about the Greek volunteers who fought alongside the Bosnian Serbs during the war(the GVG or Greek Volunteer Guard)and had allegedly taken part in the Srebrenica "massacre".After years of various of these volunteers claims of not participating nor seeing any attrocities commited by Greeks(or by Serbs in Srebrenica)the people in Greece who accused them of being war criminals,most important journalist(journalist my ***....)Takis Michas,is getting sued and actually has no evidence to provide.There is simply no evidence,no solid evidence about Greeks taking part in war crimes in Bosnia.



    As for Kosovo:

    [​IMG]


    That is another tragic tale...Albanian terrorists provoked the Yugoslav army,the Serbs replied,the Americans were eager to stop a "genocide",NATO bombed the national Serbian TV station in Belgrade,they bombed a hospital,they bombed the Chinese embassy,they bombed bridges,they bombed a bus full of people,they bombed Serb civilians,they bombed Albanian civilians....all these are the so-called "mistakes" of the smart weapons.
     
  17. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Foin, you do not fail to amaze me time - and time again.

    - Source
    - What did the committee set out to find?
    - What were their ex- and inclusion criteria?
    - Who cropped the quotes? To what end?
    - And source

    This is the exact difference between us. You make a wild claim; I set out to find proof against it and document what I am doing - and then you make a wild quoute again. You could have cooked up that entire article for all I know. Equally so for the numbers. This simply will not do.

    You claim there's a one-sided truth. We set out to find the truth together. Then we damn well might as well follow the rules of science regarding. Quotes. Sources. Dates. All verifiable.

    The entire post above is discarded by me.
     
  18. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I posted like...4 links in the previous pages :S They contain sources and all.In the previous pages there's enough evidence to convince someone the entire propaganda machine was against the Serbs.

    I discard your post as biased!You will be stalked by AA for a week. :screwyou:
     
  19. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Well, I looked it up. You posted one (1) link to a source in the last week.

    It leads to the website of APIR group, which seems to be into commercial military strategic consultancy and is based in Serbia. It seems they keep a neutral policy, but it's hard to say whether their customers are.

    The piece they wroten (that is, which you linked) is about a French general's testimony in front of the Yugoslavia tribunal at the Milosevic trial. He seems to be a witness for the defence.

    What he says is interesting, but not new. I already knew the Srebrenica enclave was in fact not demilitarized, that there were tensions between the three armed forces, that both the Serbs and Muslims were into artrocities in the surrounding region. So, basically, it's a point of view.

    They quote one source: Serbiana, April 2004. It implies they didn't bother to check against the ICTY annals.

    here you will find the full ICTY transcript for Feb.12 2004. We're in luck; only Morrilon seems to get interviewed that day. Re-reading, I think Morrilon doesn't plead in favour of the Serbs as such - he seems to be a rather neutral and observing general, who, as he stated, believes all parties were equally evil. That, too, is a one-sided truth. In that respect, there is quite some cropping in the APIS article. Morrilon clearly stated that he held Mladic responsible for the Fall of and subsequent Massacre at Srebrenica. There is no direct talk about the massacre, but he implies that he holds to the generally accepted theory (3-8000 captured, very few survivors).

    Milosevic "When I say that he, Mladic, entered into a trap and the trap was an intentional one, I'm not criticising Izetbegovic. In my opinion, he had no other way of causing what he wanted, that is to say the -- putting the international community on his side." Is that right, General Morillon? To provoke a reaction on the part of the international community and against the Serbs. Is that right? Is that --

    Morrilon Maybe, Mr. Milosevic, but one thing is sure: The real responsible is the one who started the offensive. It's Mladic. It's Mladic who two years earlier foiled the plan, and let us not reverse factors. I just said everything you said, and I remain convinced that the real one who is responsible for all the misfortunes, not only of the population of Srebrenica but all the unfortunate things which happened, was Mladic. I never said anything else. Thank you.

    The point in my previous post is that you simply chuck documents on this esteemed forum, without taking the trouble to do some background. It's not very credible, Foin. You could have dived nose-deep into the ICTY annals to make up your own conclusion about Morrilon, without having to rely on a Serbian consultant.

    You will see that I always make a quote with a link. And, if need be, a background on the source.
     
  20. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Yes I remember I saw(and I have a video of)a documentary about the war in Yugoslavia when there was an agreement to be made,Milosevic pushed Karadzic to accept it,even our then prime minister Konstantinos Mitsotakis had gone to RS to show the significance of it,and although even Karadzic himself wasn't convinced about signing it,he was going to accept the agreement but then Mladic appeared with two maps,one of the territories held by the Serbs so far and the second showing the territories they would lose if they signed the agreement.That changed their minds and it was all canceled.

    But Izetbegovic blew many chances off when he had the time to agree on ceasefires and plans and avoid the war.


    Worth checking and reading:

    http://www.srebrenica-report.com/conclusions.htm

    And

    http://www.srebrenica-report.com/politics.htm

    Excerpt from that:

    The Srebrenica events had a number of features that made it possible to claim 8,000 “men and boys” executed. One was the confusion and uncertainty about the fate of the fleeing Bosnian Muslim forces, some reaching Tuzla safely, some killed in the fighting, and some captured. The 8,000 figure was first provided by the Red Cross, based on their crude estimate that the BSA had captured 3,000 men and that 5,000 were reported “missing.” [35] It is well established that thousands of those “missing” had reached Tuzla or were killed in the fighting, [36] but in an amazing transformation displaying the eagerness to find the Bosnian Serbs evil and the Muslims victims, the “reaching safety/killed-in-action” basis of being missing was ignored and the missing were taken as executed! This misleading conclusion was helped along by the Red Cross’s reference to the 5,000 as having “simply disappeared,” and its failure to correct this politically biased usage and claim despite its own recognition that “several thousand” refugees had reached Central Bosnia. [37]



    It was also helped along by the Bosnian Muslim leadership’s refusal to disclose the names and numbers of those reaching safety, [38] but there was a remarkable readiness in the Western establishment not only to ignore those reaching safety, but also to disregard deaths in fighting and to take dead bodies as proving executions. The will to believe here was limitless: reporter David Rohde saw a bone sticking up in a grave site near Srebrenica, which he just knew by instinct was a remnant of an execution and serious evidence of a “massacre.” [39] It was standard media practice to move from an asserted and unproven claim of thousands missing, or a report of the uncovering of bodies in a grave site, to the conclusion that the claim of 8,000 executed was thereby demonstrated. [40]



    With 8,000 executed and thousands killed in the fighting there should have been huge grave sites and satellite evidence of both executions, burials, and any body removals. But the body searches in the Srebrenica vicinity were painfully disappointing, with only some two thousand bodies found in searches through 1999, including bodies killed in action and possibly Serb bodies, some pre-dating July 1995. The sparseness of these findings led to claims of body removal and reburial, but this was singularly unconvincing as the Bosnian Serbs were under intense military pressure after July 1995. This was the period when NATO was bombing Serb positions and Croat/Muslim armies were driving towards Banja Luka
    .







    Good read too: http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/Srebrenica/disarming.html (Concerning that Srebrenica was a haven for the Bosnian Muslim army)



    There's just so much stuff that don't add up.Sorry for all the reading I'm getting you in(if you or anyone else do bother to read any of the links I post here),but at first too I didn't know what really happened in Srebrenica(years ago)and now that I know it was all a hoax I just can't tolerate all that stuff.The West has chopped up Yugoslavia,making all the people suffer there,Croats,Slovenes,Bosnians,Serbs,Albanians,Skopjans in one way or another,but most of all the Serbs have suffered more.And I'm going to stick with them.That doesn't mean I hate the others,Blackness and Mem know that :)


    By the way,I've been trying to find a quote by General Morillon(or some other general)who said something like "If the Serbs executed 8,000 people they did a damn good job hiding it" I know I read it,but I can't find it again to post it here.I'll look more into that.