The one-sided truth...

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Foinikas, Dec 17, 2008.

  1. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    As you all know,during the Yugoslavian Wars many attrocities were comitted.The peoples of ex-Yugoslavia were fighting each other in a bitter civil war that lasted for many years.All sides comitted attrocities,however in the Western world or perhaps the entire world with the exception of Greece,Russia and a few other countries maybe the media only talked about Serbian attrocities and crimes of war and never or rarely about crimes comitted by other factions mainly Bosnian muslims,Albanians and sometimes Croatians.

    Here is a link and if you read the first few lines of the article it will get really interesting.Be warned that if you scroll far down the page there are some scenes of violence(with explanation under each photo).

    http://www.srpska-mreza.com/WarCrime/lm53/LM53.html
     
  2. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    I'll just say my opinion on the 90's 'war'.
    Yes, all sides did atrocities, all had their war crimes and unethical, unhuman behaviour.
    But it's quite clear that THERE WAS NO WAR, there was only an agression made by Serbia against the other countries of ex-yugoslavia. Other countries never invaded Serbia, they only exercised self-defense.
    Furthermore, the great majority of crimes (if crimes can be measured in such a way) was indeed made by Serbia.
    Croatia and Bosnia defended against the invader, this is not an excuse for the crimes they did, nor do i condone them, but the entire 'war' is Serbia's fault, this is so clear it's beyond debating.
     
  3. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    But Croatians declared themselves independent from the Federal State something considered illegal back then and when the Serbs of Kraijna declared indepdence from Croatia to remain part of Yugoslavia the Croatians didn't let them become independent.

    Also the whole Bosnia case stinks...and Karadzic had warned the muslims if they took that path too there would be a civil war and in a case of war they wouldn't be able to protect their own people(the Bosniaks).

    With respect to my Croatian friend of course,you know I'm not against Croatians or other people from ex-Yugoslavia(except Skopjans :p)
     
  4. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    Yugoslavia was a federation. Every country had the right to leave. And strange that no one ever asks why we left :p. Anyway, After WW2 Tito and the others made the agreement and divided the lands by the % of nations in a particular place.
    Krajina went to Croatia, Vojvodina to Serbia, while it was supposed to be vice versa, but no one complained.
    It's too late to complain about it 40 years later.

    And yeah Foi, i know ;)
     
  5. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    In the end the only ones who had it nice were the Slovenians....ahahahahahaha.Which is actually scary it makes me feel as if they enjoyed Italian and Austrian protection actually o_O
     
  6. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    True, but they have to endure the mockery of all others. Lol.
     
  7. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Ustasha

    Bleiburg

    I think that, in the broader sense of the word, there WAS a war, though rather complicated, especially where it concerns Bosnia. And, in general, there is no party not guilty of partaking in that war - or the atrocities involved for that matter. Far as my information reaches, Croatia, in its own right, tried to rid Croatia from Serbs.

    To put this all in some perspective; for all what happened in WWII, it can be generally said that the Serb allegience to Tito's Greater Yugoslavia is biggest of all ethnicities involved. And Tito, for the time being, managed to act as a sort of glue to keep Yugoslavia together; despot he might have been.

    When he died, though, the magic stopped. And, with the death of Yugoslavia, old wounds were ripped open oncemore. A lot of people felt like retaliation for WWII, highly fortified by (ultra-)nationalist movements within politics. And in that sense, Serbia was ahead of the pack, but I am not aware of a gouvernment not letting itself be involved in this.

    Foinikas... you, with all your knowledge of history should know better than laugh at the matter involved. It is dead-serious for the people involved. Literally, as we have found out in the 90's.

    As to the "one-sided truth"... Last week, the leading Dutch talkshow aired an interview with the sister of Radovan Karadzic to tell her story of events (especially surrounding Srebrenica). I think there's room for the other side...
     
  8. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Turambar I was laughing because me and Blackness talk about Slovenia sometimes on MSN and it's as if those guys were like "i don't care it's your war,we're not part of the country do what you want" or something.Slovenia is like a small joke between me and Blackness.With no offence to any Slovenian members of this forum if we have any.
     
  9. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    right, right.... I wasn't aware :)
     
  10. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    Tur, not once did i say Croatia didn't partake in crimes and nationalism, i'm just pointing out that it was Serbia who attacked, not the other way around, if you had read my first post, i acknowladged the fact that it did it's share of crimes against humanity, and this is innatelly wrong.
    But the war itself was not anyone's fault but Serbia's.
    ''no party not guilty in partaking the war'' - This makes no sense. Croatia was attacked. There was no choice but to fight.
     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    But the Serbs of Kraijna wanted to remain part of Yugoslavia and Croatia didn't let them just like Croatia wanted to be independent while it was part of Yugoslavia.And I also read that the muslims in Bosnia first attacked the Serbs and the Serbs in self-defence started the attacks and then the war there.
     
  12. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    The aggresion didn't start because of Krajina, Vojvodina, or any other part of land.
    It started because Milosevich was delusional with Serbia's old military power and glory, so he decided he wants those times back. He failed.
    Furthermore, Krajina was decreed as part of SR Hrvatska (croatia) half a century ago, whereas Croatia was a federative country in Yugoslavia, and had full right to become independent as a sovereign nation, which all countries agreed to at the end of WW2.
    As i said, there was an exchange, Krajina for Vojvodina (and bosnia but that's not important now).

    And why would muslims attack Serbia?
     
  13. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Hmmm... Well, I'm not defending the Serbs in this matter (at all), other than that it has indeed become hard to judge matters, since Serbia has already been condamned ad vox populi and dubbed "the bad guy".

    But I think the claim that, for all that happened in the RS Krajina period, the Serb armies were politely removed from the Eastern Croatian areas is slightly naive. Nearly all Serbs fled from this area in the aftermath of Operation Storm and - wether or not systematic - at least some army parts much encouraged the Serbs indeed to do so. Involving citizens in war situations always amount to artrocities in my book; even in full recognition of what preceded this.

    Also, I think Serbia, within the old federation, didn't so much feel Croatia broke ties - as much as made a ethnic, nationalist move against the Serbs. It's not too hard to imagine ethnic Serbs within Croatia disagreeing. Their reaction cannot be justified by this (although events further back in history give a hint at that) - but this is at the very base of the conflict.
     
  14. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Actually lately thanx to a friend of mine I found a lot of proof and links about attrocities committed on the Serbian population in Bosnia and Kosovo and about the misinformation and propaganda made by the Western media against the Serbs the biggest example of which was the Srebrenica massacre where the Serbs were accused of killing about 8,000 innocent muslim civilians and it appears to be one big hoax partially devised by the Bosnian muslims' to draw international attention.
     
  15. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Foin;

    Serbia admits that at least 2500 men from Srebrenica have been killed. It is not a hoax, by any standard. People can't, however, agree on the way events took place.

    Fact of the matter is that the Dutch UN soldiers failed to defend the enclave of Srebrenica from Serbian invasion, where men were seperated from women and children. Most of these men haven't returned; it's not that hard to imagine what happened. To draw a paralell with another situation; the Turks managed to "lose" several 100.000's of Armanians in the Middle-Eastern deserts. Is there any doubt what happened to them?

    And there is the video, Foinikas, showing Serbian soldiers executing men, generally agreed upon (and not challenged by Serbia) to come from Srebrenica.
     
  16. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Here's one article for you:

    http://www.srebrenica-report.com/hoax.htm

    Here's a second one http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/Srebrenica/hoax.html
    from which here is a sample part:

    Srebrenica is NATO's remedy; it compensates all sins. Did the Croatian Army drive 200,000 Serbs from the Krajina section of Yugoslavia? Were they trained, led and given air cover by US forces? Perhaps, but what about Srebrenica?

    Didn't the Serbs deserve it?

    By telling and retelling the story of Srebrenica over the past four and a half years the media has been able to portray the Bosnian Islamist fighters as victims and therefore humane.

    Naser Oric was the Islamist Commander at Srebrenica. This gentleman met with journalists, showed them videos of the bodies of Serbian civilians decapitated by his troops during raids on nearby villages. Oric's boasts had a purpose: to instill terror. During World War II, pro-Nazi Islamist and Croatian Ustashe forces slaughtered Serbian peasants. Every Serbian family lost people. Every Serbian family remembers. By carrying out such terror in the '90s, and boasting of it, the Islamist forces were waging a psychological war. The message to Serbs was: 'We're back. Flee or die.'

    But what about the Serbs? Did they respond in kind?

    The following article, though very definitely not 'pro-Serb' (as you shall see, the writers assume there must be some truth to the charges) nevertheless presents strong evidence that:

    1) The Islamist forces in Srebrenica employed vicious terror against Serbian civilians;

    2) The supposed eyewitness reports of Serbian revenge killings at Srebrenica which have been much trumpeted by the mass media, are thoroughly contradictory. Not only do different witnesses give contradictory accounts but witnesses tell contradictory stories to different reporters;

    3) There is no hard evidence that a massacre actually took place;

    4) The western media has reported inconsistent and contradictory anti-Serb rumors as if they are all the Gospel truth;

    5) Serbian observers have been falsely quoted as admitting the massacre took place;

    6) And perhaps most important, Dutch military officers - that is, the UN officers who were on the scene when the Serbs took Srebrenica in 1995 - report there was no massacre.



    Which is enough reading for now.
     
  17. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Right....

    These are quotes taken from the the recent interview dated December 16 2008, with Sonja Karadzic , daughter of Radovan Karadzic.

    "From Srebrenica, it is known that 8 Serbs have killed a huge number of people"

    "This happened days later, after what happened in Srebrenica"

    She then continues to admit that this [Srebrenica] is a "terrible tragedy", adding that it was unnecessary.

    "The Serb research and documentation center names two- to two and a half thousand Muslims [as being victim]."

    "There is no Serb who denies this tragedy took place".

    She continues to say (for all fairness) about the role of her father:

    "No, he did not give orders (for this), didn't know about it and he didn't agree."

    "I know this because I worked with him and was with him" (...) " I just know this, I was there".

    The interview can be seen here; it starts after 33:35 and runs for about 20 minutes. It's in Dutch and Serbian (or whatever their language is called). I made the translations as literally as possible.


    If you will, that is the other side of the truth, to stick to the thread.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2008
  18. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    So you agree that the Srebrenica incident was given far too much publicity and attention and was enormously stressed by the American and generally the Western media and NATO in order to portray the Serbs as evil killing machines.
     
  19. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Heh, I think you misunderstand me.

    There will always be arguing about the numbers and acts from both sides in these sorts of events.

    However, you down-right denied the whole thing by calling it a hoax and there, on queue, appeared a credible Serbian source, who agreed on the core of the issue ("terrible, unnecessary tragedy; 2-2500 people).

    Now, if the truth would lie somewhere in the middle, that would be 5000 people. That is ethnic cleansing, Foi. The largest estimates of Serbs having been killed in that area is about 500 (!), about 300 of them being soldiers.

    There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Serbian action was overly cruel, unnecessary, murderous and out of every proportion. You make of that what you want.

    Nor will I, by the way, downplay the role of the UN and the Dutch army in the whole situation; apart from what the Serbs did. After all, they promised to provide a safe haven; a promise the Dutch batalion and, with them, the UN couldn't keep. You will find, by the way, that the Dutch officers (Karremans in particular) stated that he didn't know what became of the men, after they were seperated from women and children. It only transpired much later that they had been killed; something the Dutch army never even considered.

    The situation, by the way, led to the resgination of the Dutch Prime Minister at that time, when the role of him and his army transpired and, in essense, taking responsibility that way. His decision was later backed by a parliamentary commission, who stated that 8000 people had "disappeared".
     
  20. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    From
    http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~bip/docs/kosovo_polje/srebrenica_hoax.html


    In the media, each succeeding generation of speculation - even falsification - is built upon preceding generations of unproven reports, many of which were set in motion as deliberate disinformation by secret services and public relations agencies. Once they have been repeated over and over as certainty, anyone who would dare to venture upstream to the source and demand substantiating evidence runs the risk of being verbally lynched for having denied something as obvious as the earth's surface being flat.

    Given the fact that the number of persons alleged to have been summarily executed could make the difference between a charge of "genocide" and a charge of "war crime", and faced with the difference between the 8,000 alleged to have been killed and the 460 dead bodies actually found, the first step in beginning to sort out fact from fiction would be to clear up this discrepancy in numbers.


    Within days of the take-over of Srebrenica, Zepa, a second Moslem enclave (and UN Safe Area), was also captured by Bosnian Serb forces. Among the defenders of Zepa were hundreds of the "missing" soldiers from Srebrenica. The New York Times recounts:

    "The wounded troops were left behind, and when the Bosnian Serbs overran the town on Tuesday, the wounded were taken to Sarajevo for treatment at Kosevo Hospital. Many of them had begun their journey in Srebrenica, and fled into the hills when that 'safe area' fell to the Bosnian Serbs on July 11. These men did not make it to Tuzla, where most of the refugees ended up, but became the defenders of Zepa instead. 'Some 350 of us managed to fight our way out of Srebrenica and make it into Zepa,' said Sadik Ahmetovic, one of 151 people evacuated to Sarajevo for treatment today.(...) They said they had not been mistreated by their Serb captors."15