The Most Evil Man in History

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Unraveller, Jun 22, 2007.

  1. Kill frenzy

    Kill frenzy New Member

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    Naa thats cool, Bosnian and Albanian muslims only got hunted down like dogs and shot on the spot. Its funny how we fall over our selves when someone brings up the holocaust.

    But obviously you folk think rag heads don't deserve the same.
     
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    You obviously don't know that Bosnian muslims and Albanians commited the same if not worse(many people say worse)crimes against Serbs and their efforts for ethnic cleansing of the Serbs were not given too much attention by the western media,but kept talking about the poor Albanians losing their homes etc.

    We were one of the very few countries to support Serbia and actually understand that the foreign media only presented one side of the story on this war.

    Greek volunteers went to Serbia and Bosnia and fight alongside the Serbs forming a volunteer guard.Many of them who came back described all the attrocities and evil things the muslims did to the Orthodox Serbs there.I do remember what one of them said in an interview in a strategy/military greek magazine about what was happening there.
     
  3. Kill frenzy

    Kill frenzy New Member

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    That was retaliation for rounding them up and shooting them.
     
  4. Aphelion

    Aphelion The Mighty One

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    Yet again, an evil deed for a greater good.. I dont see how could the death of tens of thousands of innocent people can be equal to empowering the country. He executed without remorse, he ruled the country with fear. Same with Stalin in WWII, that the Soviet union must achieve victory by all costs. They both were fearsome rulers in russia which ruled by fear over the country. When you said bigger and more glorious, you probably meant throughout wars. Of course, one ruler (Monarch, dictator) is always the best for martial law, democracy fails in such terms. However, it was proved that democracy is the best kind of government as of now ^_^
     
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  5. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    No actually the fact that Ivan the Terrible was a great ruler for Russia has nothing to do with the deaths of those people.He didn't kill them to achieve something,Stalin for example caused people to die because he made all these ...changes in the system and the life of the peasants that caused millions of people to die.

    Ivan the Terrible didn't become great because of the deaths of the people but because of discoveries,diplomacy and victory in battles.
     
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Retaliation my beep!

    You think the Bosnians and Albanians didn't want to clean the place from the Serbs?And that they are innocent?Well think again.

    Muslims impaling christian orthodox there and letting their screams be heard from the speakers of the mosques like that Greek who fought there said.Or muslims forcing christians to convert to islam and then shoot them.That Albanians have been trying to ethnic cleanse and force the Serbs to leave Kossovo etc.What about all that?

    But of course none of these is projected.What is projected is the evil Serbs.
     
  7. Aphelion

    Aphelion The Mighty One

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    Perhaps you didnt understand my point, I didnt say that he killed in order to achieve. Look at the global picture, if Ivan the "Terrible" wouldnt have been a tsar in Russia, then many people wouldnt have died but his achievments wouldnt have been achieved. Anyway, I've taken a look into the history books and I can now tell you for a fact that; yes, he conquered Siberia and Tartary, he established the first Russian parliament of the feudal estates, he introduced the local self-management in rural regions, he embarked on wide-ranging reforms, including a centralized administration, church councils that systematized the church's affairs. After conquering Kazan (1552) and Astrakhan (1556), he engaged in an unsuccessful war to control Livonia, fighting against Sweden and Poland (1558–83). For twenty-four years the Livonian War dragged on, damaging the Russian economy and military and failing to gain any territory for Russia. In the 1560s the combination of drought and famine, Polish-Lithuanian raids, Tatar invasions, and the sea-trading blockade carried out by the Swedes, Poles and the Hanseatic League devastated Russia. The price of grain increased by a factor of ten. Epidemics of the plague killed 10,000 in Novgorod. In 1570 the plague killed 600-1000 in Moscow daily. After his defeat, Ivan formed an oprichnina. This whole system of Oprichnina has been viewed by some historians as a tool against the omnipotent hereditary nobility of Russia (boyars) who opposed the absolutist drive of the tsar, while others have interpreted it as a sign of the paranoia and mental deterioration of the tsar. With a large bodyguard, he withdrew into his own entourage and left Russia's management to others. At the same time, he instituted a reign of terror, executing thousands of boyars and ravaging the city of Novgorod. During the 1570s he married five wives in nine years, and, in a fit of rage, he murdered his son Ivan, his only viable heir, in 1581.

    In Russian folklore, the tsar Ivan IV (The "Terrible") is a direct contrast to that which is typically painted of him and his rule by historians. Primarily, throughout folktales, the tsar is typically described as an “ally and protector of the ordinary people against their common enemies, and especially the boyars”.

    Anyway, its history.. so whatever we think about it, its still unchanged and cannot be ever changed.
     
  8. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Unless Chuck Norris goes back in time and changes it.
     
  9. Kill frenzy

    Kill frenzy New Member

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    Islam doesn't believe in forced conversion.
     
  10. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    And Christianity does not talk about violence but look at the Crusades.

    Muslims forced Christians to convert to Islam from time to time.It happened many times during the 400 years of Turkish occupation in Greece,it happened during the early 20th Century again with Turkey and Greece,it happened in the Balkans and it happened in Chechenya as well.
     
  11. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    While typical christians do not talk about that, I am one who does. I always use that and how they founded america on "God's Word" (by killing, raping, stealing and destroying the natives in the "name of God") when "christians" say how evil and violent muslims are.
    I am one who accepts and is ashamed of christianity's past.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2007
  12. Jessehk

    Jessehk The introverted

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    It sounds like your perceived ignorance of the rest of the world to these events and your perceived visibility of the Holocaust is causing you to believe that the Jews control the world.

    The fact is, the Holocaust happened about 60 years ago. There are people today (including relatives of mine) who can orally recount their personal experiences and the hardships they went through. Millions were killed, more were deported, robbed, and denied basic human rights and whether they were aware of it or not, the majority of the world did nothing. That sort of thing "hits home" with a lot of people especially given the scope of people affected (it was far from just Jews) as well as the recent period of its occurrence. History is bound to be repeated and by remembering the Holocaust we hope to remember the horror of genocide in all forms.

    I guess my final point would be to stop looking for a Jewish conspiracy (I can't vouch for individuals, but I can assure you there is no international plot to take over the world), and if you want events to be remembered that you feel aren't as recognized as they should be -- well -- do something about it. Educate others about the things you feel are important. Just make sure you don't try to discredit the history you personally can't relate to in the process.
     
  13. Kill frenzy

    Kill frenzy New Member

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    I can tell you hate muslims. Your Greek right? If so, don't tell me that you don't have problems with muslims because of the Turks. I know full well whats happened and what the Ottoman empire did.

    But that doesn't mean the Serbian military and government aren't a bunch of child murdering scum.

    Serbs as a people are just like anyone, I have nothing against Serbia. But i have BIG ****in problems with the war in Bosnia and Serbias military.

    But this does not reflect back to the Serbian people them selves.
     
  14. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Kill Frenzy you are just so...what can I say.You have no idea what you're talking about.I have many muslim friends both in real life and on the net(most of them girls)from Arabic countries and Turkey,some of my very good friends which I love are muslims,I had arabic lessons and I have many books about their history and religion etc.

    It's true that Turks have been the main "enemies" of Greece for centuries now and although relationships between the two people are better than ever,the Turkish government keeps trying to cause problems to us and they have the same imperialistic policy they had centuries ago.

    I know that the Serbs or at least some paramilitary Serbian armies did a lot of bad things to Bosnians and Croatians which could make them seem like animals and not human,but what's not know is the other side of the story and all the suffering and crimes commited against the Serbs from Muslim Bosnians and Albanians.We were the only country to support Serbia in the war it's true.Except for some help from Russia as well.
     
  15. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I think the word you're looking for is "ignorant". And I agree on what Foinikas says on this point. And yeah people often hear one side of the story and they already draw their conclusions. I think that's just a wrong attitude. It's the advantage to live in Europe to hear both sides from the stories, cause you live in a pretty 'neutral' continent except for a few countries especially like the UK unfortunatly. I think the Americans often don't hear the 'truth' for example from the Iraqi's point of view...I can't speak for all of them...I'm not going to generalize but I think they only hear what America has to say, what its governement has to say, without really listening to what the Iraqi people have to say. That is also ignorance...
     
  16. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    For the full article you can go here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian-Greek_Friendship

    But here are some parts to show you that only we supported the Serbs when the entire world(mostly driven by ignorance or brain-washing against the Serbs)supported the muslims,NATO and the Albanians.

    Meanwhile, food, oil, and arms were reported moving from Greece into Serbia in violation of the UN embargo. Before, during, and after its 1994 presidency of the EU, Greece was the only EU nation to back the Serbian position that Serbian forces had entered Bosnian territory in response to Bosnian provocations. In early 1994, Greece incurred the displeasure of its European allies by voting against NATO air strikes on Serbian positions. Greece also refused the use of its NATO air bases at Preveza on the Ionian Sea for such attacks and refused to supply Greek troops to the UN peacekeeping mission in Bosnia. In NATO, Greece's position was diametrically opposed to that of Turkey, which supported the Bosnian Muslims.


    Besides some dozens of Greek volunteers fought along Bosnian Serbs in the Bosnia war and helped capturing Srebrenica. According to a report in the Greek daily Ethnos, they raised the Greek flag over the town's destroyed Orthodox church. Since the start of the war, about 100 Greeks have fought in a "guard of volunteers" based in Vlasenica, in central Bosnia.[6] The Greek Volunteer Guard, or GVG, soon became a regular fighting unit with its own insignia - a white double-headed eagle on a black background. In September 1995, four of its members received the White Eagle medal of honor from then-Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadžić

    Muslims there committed huge crimes agaisnt the Serbs and the Albanians as well.But the West only talks about the Serbian crimes.I'ts just like how they didn't care about what the Chechens did to the Russians.Have you seen videos of Chechen rebels torturing and killing people?Forcing them to convert to Islam?

    What do you know about the Ottoman Empire and all these years of Ottoman rule in Greece and in the Balkans Kill Frenzy?Tell me.Because if you don't know anything I'll be more than happy to tell you.
     
  17. Aphelion

    Aphelion The Mighty One

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    Yup, agree with you that during the WWII alot of people from all over the world (especially Europe) had suffered all of what you had mentioned above. However, dont forget that the Jewish people have suffered more than the others. The German Nazii regime was a mass slaughter of jews no matter who they were or what they did. Germans robbed them of all of their property, status and even human rights. Jews were the only ones living in such a hellish place as a ghetto. Many of them died due to starvation and sickness. After the Wannsee Conference (1942), Jews from all over occupied Europe were systematically evacuated to concentration and extermination camps, where they were either killed (In gass chambers or by a machine gun) or forced into slave labour. No other nation had suffered such a horrible experiences as the jews did. Its just that all of them were regular citizens, they had no means to defend themselves, unlike the soldiers who fought the war. In Israel, The Holocaust is a memorial day for all those six million jews (of which a million were children) which were killed in such ways that I've mentioned above.

    What does that supposed to mean? o_O
     
  18. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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  19. Kill frenzy

    Kill frenzy New Member

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    Seriously, you're talking out your arse as much as i am. Foinikas is Greek, so he's in a position where he lives in that part of Europe to know what he's talking about.

    But jesus don't get onto my case about it just because you've jumped half way into this debate after Foinikas makes a good arguement.

    And you have no idea whats going on in Iraq either, you just eat up all the propaganda like everyone else in the western world. Atleast have the decency and wisdom to admit it.

    Come back to the real world for a second lefty. You still live in the western world, so when you crap on about how Americans are ignorant. Just remeber that you're in the exact same cookie jar as them so get a grip.
     
  20. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    You don't know what I have learned about Iraq, so you can't attack me on that, I didn't get on your case...I only guessed what foinikas tried to say about you and I thought he was right (for once) lol. Me and Foinikas hardly agree on points, our opinions are very different on most matters. But this time he has made a good point. If you generelize how relationships are between the Greeks and the Turks that's your problem. I think as a Greek Foinikas knows better than you how the current relationship is between the Turks and the Greeks...but you start judging it from what happened in the past between them, not knowing how the situation is now. And I didn't attack every American, I said I couldn't do that...not every American thinks the same way as I said...I didn't want to generalize...and you can't compare Europe to America. We live in very different circumstanses concerning the war of terror in general. As for our country for example doesn't want anything to do with it. But we send our troops to actually help, not fight, but help. It's the least we can do. Eat up the propoganda? Clearly you don't know what the media here has to say about such matters. We see what Bush and the Americans do in this war, but we also see what happens on the other side whether it's Iraq, or any other country involved in the war of terror. If I was just eating up the war propoganda I would think the war of terror is all for a good cause, but that's not what I think at all. You don't even know my opinion about the war of terror so you can't judge me on that, so stop attacking me, cause you're just showing more ignorance in this matter.