The Ground-Zero "Mosque"

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Turambar, Aug 17, 2010.

  1. Ser Land

    Ser Land New Member

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    That's no excuse. They're adults, they better start acting like that. And the media are a lame travesty of what they should be, doing the precise opposite of what they should do.
     
  2. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Human beings aren't as intelligent as you made them out to be, Ser. True they're adults, but that doesn't give them the right to act calmly because humans being humans will forever be bounded by their emotions especially in cases like losing loved ones via the hands of others.

    And yes, the current media is uber lame. On that point I agree with you. Shame to see the kind of media during the good ol' Watergate scandal gone from the reality. :(

    @Padme: I suggest you reading what RW has said here. It really makes a lot of sense. :)
     
  3. Ser Land

    Ser Land New Member

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    What? You mean the same human beings that are cracking the laws of physics, that are in the process of finding out the human genome, aren't sufficiently intelligent to know better than to treat others as inferiors or alien?

    How come?

    And it doesn't give them the right? The right? Really? The right? And what would give them the right? What gives us the right to do anything?

    The concept of "right" is a human construct. In accordance to the same laws that we rule ourselves with, we not only have the "right", we also have the obligation to do so.
     
  4. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    You can go on N number of high brow theories, write countless books and create an infinity amount of story telling, but humans being humans will forever be bounded to their emotions. That's why I said human beings aren't as intelligent as one makes them out to be. If you subject yourself under emotions even though you know it's wrong, then it's a show of stupidity just to quote an example.

    What I'm trying to say is very simple: On paper, it's very easy to think on an objective basis. But once push comes to shove, you'll know the reality's a total hundred eighty turn. Hopefully I've managed to make myself clearer here. That plus if my memory is correct, didn't Justice said that the location of the mosque was unrealistic because it's a long journey between it and the general Muslim settlements? I'll try to find that out, but if it's true, then the decision would be seen to be dumber than usual. -.-
     
  5. Padmé

    Padmé Mrs Cascador

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  6. wanderingmagus

    wanderingmagus Constantly Around :D

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    ^ya see? now tell me how that reaction is any different from what other cultures around the world might do if the situation was the other way around.
     
  7. Ser Land

    Ser Land New Member

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    I understand what you mean, but I must say that just because it has always been like this, it doesn't mean it can't (or shouldn't) change. We can change. We just need to want it to happen. Not that long ago, most people accepted slavery as normal. Now, most people find it to be repulsive and inhuman.

    And it doesn't matter if the place isn't the best suited for muslims or not. That's not what's at stake here.
     
  8. Ser Land

    Ser Land New Member

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    I hope you're being sarcastic, although I think you're not.
     
  9. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    On your statement of change, yes theory wise it's possible, but because emotions has always been a part and parcel of humane nature, it's much harder than one might imagine. I'm not saying it's impossible, but humans being humans won't be able to let go of certain things in their lives because they feel that it's part of them that they are willing to accept. Again another show of humane stupidity as shown by the quote below.

    As for your final statement, yes I know what you mean, but if that mosque truly isn't easily accessible right from the start, then why build it in the first place? Unless it's only for symbolic purposes, which imo would be really dumb. You'll have to realize that we're living in a pragmatic society after all.

    And I ****ing blame the media fear mongering. Humans have always been stupid though. What makes these idiots think that they're more righteous than the other party is something beyond me. Maybe it's the Republican propaganda? I don't know to be frank. Hopefully Justice can come out and say majority of the Republicans ain't Islamphobic. But then again, it's likely not. :(
     
  10. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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  11. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    Now now folks, I feel honored and a little abashed and all that by the meaning you all interpret into my post. But it was just my point of view on the things. I'm no more a prophet than before ;)
    Thanks for the rep azuren, and thanks for trying Tur, Anakin, Or and who else ever did try as well ;) I appreciate it.

    So, now, coming to the article Padme posted. Seems I was mistaken about the witch hunt thing: It seems to slowly become one.
    I don't wanna say 'told ya so', because you don't have anything to do with it, but this incident just proves my point on the mistake the Muslim community makes here.
    Sure they have the right to build that community center wherever they want: but they know about that wound called Ground Zero. Why rub it in and risk a violent escalation of the issue, when they could build it somewhere else and all would be well?

    Btw, that part about Obamas religion in the article was SOOOO american. Please, just, PUH-Lease.
    -.-'


    Edit: And yes, I know, I now lost the superhero status in this debate. I originally never wanted to posted again after you all started hailing my first post. But here I simply had to let my 08/15 oppinion out again. I'm sorry to burst you bubble :(
    :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2010
  12. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    kekeke - don't fear to take part :)

    Evidently, the status quo (although that status quo was mostly one made up of silence) was desturbed by this plan.

    Also, evidently, there was already a lot of hatred going on within this silence. Apart from disgust, people are also confronted with this element of their society and it gets people to talk about it. I don't live in New York - but it seems that there is a lot of parnoia and latent hatred, but also a lot of talk about paranoia and latent hatred. And that is not necesserally a bad thing. I am a close believer of dialogue.

    Re-analysing the article, it emanates that that Newsweek isn't so much a news source, as it is a opinion platform or something. Only one paragraph is about the attack on the cab driver. Apparently, that is not news worthy, because a further 5 paragraphs of opinion and instigations are added. Notably, Newsweek didn't bother to ask Imam Rauf for a reaction, even though they specifically link the attack to his initiative. In the future, I shall ignore it as a source of news :)
     
  13. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Mosque not built-Muslims good guys
    Mosque built-No discrimination,muslims good guys

    Either way,muslims win.

    Mosque not built-What?Jihad against the West!
    Mosque built-Victory of Islam against the West!

    Either way muslims win.

    I like our more "close-minded" area in the Balkans...
     
  14. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    A) what's so bad about the muslims being the good guys for once?
    B) If they wanna fight a war against the west for no reason at all, how are they the good guys?
    C) When they build the Mosque there, how is that a victory for "Islam"? They then did what all the other religions do to: They built a community center.

    The only reason to NOT build there is, that it is a sensitive spot and that building the Mosque could cause more trouble than it's "worth"

    I think foi, that you are confusing Islamists and Muslims.
    The Muslim is the average, harmless, integrated follower of Islam: Your neighboor, with who you chat, eat and befriend.
    The Islamist is the weirdo who takes religion as an excuse to kill people. He's the guy you meet in those Jihad boot camps. That's the one you don't wanna get to know.
    Don't throw them all in one pot.
     
  15. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Oh don't you try to tell me about Muslims.I was going through a big "arab culture" phase a for some years during that time I was reading all books about Arabic and muslim culture I could find and watched every documentary and movie on TV about Arabs and Persians.

    I damn well know the difference between Muslims and Islamists and nowadays there's only a thin line separating these two.Fortunately things in Iraq are better now but take a look at Afghanistan and the rest of the world,it's getting worse.

    The West didn't give them a chance when they were the good guys thousands of times in the past especially in Palestine and you're telling me what's so bad about being the good guys for once.No mosque at Ground Zero.End of it.It's out of the question if you wanna talk in the heart of the average New Yorker and American.It's a HUGE political risk for Obama and personally I don't care about the Democrats' political risk nor about the Ground Zero mosque but if I was an American I would be so damn angry about this decision.

    What do I mean Islam wins no matter what?I mean that Obama has made a decision that will benefit all muslims no matter the outcome.Yes,for you both Muslims and[ I] Islamists[/I].Because if they build the mosque all muslims including the islamists will consider it as a victory of Islam.Cultural victory,symbolic victory.Whatever.

    If the mosque isn't built in the end,then they will be the "good guys" because they will be considered as victims of discrimination by thousands of people around the world.

    So...Obama is showing them a tree trying to hide the forest behind it.Building a mosque in New York near Ground Zero.Authorized by the government.How nice!
    That makes you forget the real problems and discrimination the Arabs and other muslims for example Persians and Kurds have gone through for decades and are still going through because of the American foreign policy.

    I know about Muslims Wolf.I had friends who were from Palestine and Syria.I had lunch with them,I went out for coffee with them,we talked,we laughed.

    Nobody is throwing everyone in the same pot.But don't forget that there are MILLIONS of muslims in the world,I don't know how many millions of muslims in USA and that there is a fine line that seperates islamists from "normal" muslims and that there is not always a clear description as to who is a radical islamist or a very devoted muslim.

    Did you see Gadafi on the news?He went to Italy again.Buiseness with Italy and the Western world.Millions of Euro.Investments that are probably worth billions of Euros in Libya.
    Yet...Gadafi talked about Islam to the 500 girls that were brought to him by an escorts agency and as they said in the news 3 of them converted to Islam.I don't know if that's true or not,but having Gadafi telling them all to marry Libyan men and converting to Islam...isn't exactly politics.

    Gadafi also said that "Islam should be the dominant religion in Europe" or something like that.Most Italians knew that it's all about buiseness and money and investing in Libya,but that made them angry.
     
  16. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    So Gadafi said that Islam should be the dominant religion in Europe. - The non-muslim Europeans get angry
    And we once stated that Christianity is the only true religion in the world. - the non christian folks got angry.
    Let Gadafi state what he wants, you can't keep him from that. You can however control how much it provokes you.

    @ the converting matter: 3 girls converted to Islam when Gadafi talked to them. But I bet that when the Pope goes somewhere, folks convert as well. THe pope doesn't equal Gadafi, I know, but don't tell me that the pope is not a political figure of the west.

    And again I think that building this Mosque is not about winning anything.
    Sure, al Quaida will see it as a victory - but I doubt that the rest of the Muslim world sees it as a victory of any sort.
    Because the rest of the muslim-world was not in favor of bombing the WTC and killing thousands of people. Ergo, they don't think "first we killed them and now we get to build our symbol on their funeral piles."
    Extremists, terrorists are a minority, they do not rule the whole Muslim world/ community.

    Btw, the mosque will be built anyways, if not at ground zero, then a few blocks down the street.

    Plus, if some weird guy considers the Mosque at ground zero a victory, it'll only be because the media made such a fuss about it. Noone would've been the wiser if some stupid Lobbyist hadn't thought that it would be smart, to yell and scream about it.
    (Stupid republicans -.-)
     
  17. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    The mosque should be built far away from Ground Zero.It's like building a monument for the enemy in a battle you've lost,but it's much worse because it was a terrorist attack and it's not just a mosque it's going to be something like an islamic cultural center.And I'm sure most Americans see it like that.In this part of the world,in the Balkans and the middle-east and in East Europe,people would still get angry if someone built a monument for the enemy of a battle their people lost CENTURIES ago.And this was a terrorist attack that happened only 9 years ago.

    USA lost its credibility and role as a "true supporter of freedom and democracy" a long time ago.This gesture will not close a chasm that has been severerly damaged by the Clinton and Bush foreign policies.Especially the Bush foreign policy...
     
  18. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    The significance eludes me.

    I don't put my confidence in Escort girls, to be honest. They generally have... other qualities which means that investing in intellect is mostly optional. Three out of 500 is a pretty poor score for someone who considers himself a charismatic leader in a room of otherwise obscured minds.

    If you are looking for an answer: look to home politics. How did this turn of events made him look back home. If you want to understand the tyrant, start at his home audience.

    ... how did this connect to Park51 again?
     
  19. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    @Tur: Not at all.

    @Foi: True supporters of freedom and democracy? If not the US, who then invests so much money and so many lives in fighting for freedom and democracy? Sure, their motives are not all that noble... not at all. But the US better keep up their role as a mighty western force, or this western world will get run over by those other forces: China, Russia and aliens.
    I do admit though, that the USA lost credibility in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. But that is also due to the fact that the world is not as black and white as it was in WWII. This Mosque decision has nothing to do with the credibility of the US.

    And we're completely off topic.
     
  20. Ser Land

    Ser Land New Member

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    It's not their place. The UN was created precisely with that in mind.
     
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