The Ground-Zero "Mosque"

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Turambar, Aug 17, 2010.

  1. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    There's been word about an Islamic comunity center bordering the area formerly inhabited by the World Trade Center towers. Due to the sensitive relation between the site and Islam, immediately a lot of controversy erupted.

    Although it isn't actually certain the Cordoba House would indeed be a Mosque, a lot of people seem to think this particular site is insensitive. Others plead that this is New York, acclaimed capital city of tolerance and that, if anywhere, this should indeed be possible in New York.

    The initiators, meanwhile, claim to be of a moderate Islamic tradition and wants to bring Islam and The West closer together, especially on this crucial historical ground. In the mean time, national and international figureheads dig in for a confrontation...

    Sooo... is there anyone with an opinion on this?
     
  2. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I honestly think that (despite the terrible press and overall attitude) the only way the muslim community is going to regain its general favour with the general population is through two approaches;

    1) greater mixing with the host nation (in this case the USA) and moving away from areas/sub communities within the host nation. That means more housing in general areas and less overall formation of the "ghetto" type environment. Increased mixing generally opens up most peoples eyes to the fact that the average person really is just average and not out ot do harm - however when you have sub communities that isolate themselves within a host nation then even without the international and terrorist problem they become an easy target for suspect behaviour.

    2) greater publication through the media of Muslim people working with the US and against the terrorist groups - essentially a more visible effort and publication of themselves policing themselves. This helps at a larger scale and aims to build up the picture that it is indeed only select people within the muslim community and not the whole population

    I think the building where it is will just be a target and a figurehead - whilst the media keep their eye on it and report on it it will be a national point of interest - beyond that it will slip back to being just a local point of interest and possible conflict. I agree that on the one side it is showing tolerance and acceptance that not all Muslims are on the terrorist side, but I also feel that its a wasted effort if it simply becomes a Muslim only centre.
     
  3. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I find it somewhat disturbing that people in general expect the Muslim community to take action. Of course, interaction comes from two sides. But, in my opinion, the "general" community (if ever there is such a thing) has alienated itself much more from the Muslim community then the other way around...

    Ghettos usually form when people don't feel welcome or at home in the society they land themselves in. This says as much about the host as it does about the minority that is ghettoing itself up. Also; minorities and first- and second generation immigrants don't have the means to move out of these ghetto environment.

    Let me also note that if anyone is likely to form ghettos or communities, it's Westerners - especially wealthy ones. Although I am all for the idea (I live virtually next to a Mosque), I don't feel we can demand this is any kind of way. It is in the nature of people to huddle - and if that is manifested in a relatively poor community, the label Ghetto easily sticks. Maybe we should try and offset the balance by moving to one of these ghettos?

    I fully agree that moderate Islam needs more exposure. Still, I think the sound of extremism will be relatively hard to off-set with all the focus on Afghanistan and, to lesser extend, Iraq.

    Still, I can fully appreciate how immigrated Middle-Easterners are not fully behind the efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan either. Looking at the death toll alone for instance will reveal that a lot more civilians have died from these war then Alliance troops. Whilst the latter get all the attention and heroic epitaphs.

    A cultural center in Manhattan will partially take care of point 1 :p - and to some extend point 2 as well...

    Of course, eventually every newsworthy item ends up in the litter bin. Thing is, though, a cultural center in the center of the world of business and at the center of attention when it comes to terrorism might become an important platform on Muslim issues. As you said, we need more of those...
     
  4. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Mosque near the Ground Zero?Bad idea I think.I heard about it on the news and I know a lot of Americans are angry about it and many more would be even more angry if a mosque was built there.

    There's one thing about infuriating muslims and there's another thing about infuriating Americans.I mean ok,maybe New York and generally USA is a place of tolerance,but that is offensive.

    And again if they complain about it go tell the Saudis to built a HUGE church in their country and see their reactions.
     
  5. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Thing is, Foin - most New Yorkers are not infuriated. Though they are devided, it seems more people are in favour of the idea over those opposing. Neither constitutes a majority, though - which also tells a lot.
     
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Esto es loco cabron!What are they thinking?If they build the mosque they might have even more problems.Not to mention that the terrorists will go on and brag about how they got a victory and a mosque is now built were there used to be towers etc.
     
  7. Jingojolene

    Jingojolene Wayfarer, heartlander

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    I absolutely have an opinion on this - when you said, Turumbar, that the initiators wanted to bring Islam and the West closer together my mind was immediately made up.

    I think that it's a great idea and I can completely, obviously, understand the opposition, it seems that indeed if anywhere it should be New York and I think it would help people to bridge the misunderstanding between Muslims, and extremist terrorists that are followers of Islam. Especially those involved in the awful incident of 9/11, who may have become racist/prejudiced because of it.
     
  8. Jingojolene

    Jingojolene Wayfarer, heartlander

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    I don't the muslims involved with this would associate with the terrorists nor the terrorists with them they're completely different sides oft he religion - that's like a protestant church being built and hte catholics bragging about it - they're opposites of the same religion.
     
  9. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I won't disagree with that point, the problem is that if the general community moves away its unlikely to move back again without due reason. Sadly this does put the pressure on the Muslim community to respond and in effect invite.

    I don't think its so much a case of feeling welcome or not but more a simple base reaction to club together as you say. The problem however is once they grow governments and the people themselves encourage further growth of the area. Once it gets so large it starts to operate on its own - sure it trades with and obeys the law of the host nation (As much as it is enforced) but its general community does not deal with those living nearby who are not of their group - and vis versa of course.
    I also understand your idea of moving people into the ghetto but I think honestly that things have to go the other way - the ghetto has to be encouraged to disperse or at least filter out.

    I know it seems that I am arguing that its all at the foot of the other side to do when it is in fact a problem that the west has certainly not helped with. But still remember that encouragement of losing the ghetto mindset; publication of media views; acceptance and such have all got to come from the west as well. In truth any approach has to involve both sides in order to resolve problems.
     
  10. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    That's a bit different.

    Can you imagine fundamentalists releasing videos saying that it was indeed a victory and that they won and now they can fill the world with mosques and go on with their jihad and war etc.?

    I think it's a very bad choice.And I wonder if the families of the people who died there would want to see a mosque standing there.
     
  11. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    I don't see the problem. This is supposed to be a land of religious freedom. Saying "no" to a group for building whatever just because of some crazy members of their religion did something horrible...isn't right. It's punishing the whole.
    If that is the case then all Christian churches in the U.S should be torn down because of what the Christian Zealots did to the Natives of this land. Stealing, raping, murdering all in the name of God.
     
  12. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    You guys know this isn't the same case and you're trying to compare with different cases.

    So I'm asking you.If a "zealot" like Alchemist said,annihilated a big mosque in or symbol of a muslim country and then the Christians demanded a big church to be built there,how do you think they would react?

    And no please don't give me the "we're different people,we're more civilized" stuff.

    This is where "too much civilization" gets you.They hate you to the bone and want to see you all killed and you just pet them.

    Who had this idea of building a mosque there anyway?

    Is it like that idea of the muslims in Greece building a big mosque and center of islamic studies in Athens with a 50 meters high minaret funded by Saudi Arabia?And they wanted to build that near the airport too.
     
  13. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I would not be at all surprised to see this community center somewhere at Osama Bin Ladens shortlist. Basically, moderate Muslims side with the West, or at least try to. That's worse than the infidels of America - that's treachery to Islam.

    I think we kind of agree in the end, but approach the problem from a different side :p

    We'll meet somewhere in the middle...

    No church was demolished in New York. Not on purpose anyway. I don't think the equation is right. But I get your point. Still, this isn't Amman or Theran or Riyadh. This is the capital and pillar of the Free World. The society has to be taken into account.

    Thing is - this, apparently, is the War on Terror. A War on Terror isn't fought on the battle field - it is fought in the hearts and minds of the people. Think about where terror strikes. Terror is about fear. If you give in to cheap sentiment and generalisation, then Terror is winning. To achieve victory, you have to attempt the polar opposite. Building a Islam Community Center at the heart of the most important strike and graciously welcoming it is exactly that.
     
  14. Alchemist

    Alchemist The Fighters Guide House Member

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    It is different. You have to take the country and it society and such into consideration. This is a land of religious freedom.

    No, it's not petting. It's about not hating the whole for one groups actions.
    This is where I point out something you should already know.
    Turn the other cheek.
    Yeah, so one particular group of rabid terrorists killed many people in a devastating and cowardly attack. Why should we hate everyone? The majority of Muslims do no want what they are doing. This goes back to the camps in old wars. Oh, the Japanese army attacked us, lets take every Japanese person in America, even the ones who support America, away from their homes, take away their freedom and lock them away. That kind of stuff is not right.
    That is prejudice. Hating the whole for one groups actions.


    I agree with Tur's last statement.
     
  15. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I know what you guys are saying but do you understand that this is something scandalous?

    If a mosque is built near the Ground Zero area this would:

    1.Many Americans to become more racist or violent.

    2.Make the fundamentalists smile and think of it as a victory.

    In any case I would like to know how the families of the people who died there would feel like passing by that place to leave a flower and see a mosque standing there with a minaret.

    If they want to build a mosque for the muslims of New York they can build it somewhere else.
     
  16. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I think they should grant to have a mosque built on Ground Zero. If America wants to show that it a country of freedom then this would make an excellent example. This may provoke more racism, but not on a major scale I think. Most won't become more racist, but if it is granted that this is built, they would rather have their doubts about who gets to decide that this Mosque is built at Ground Zero and that's not the Muslims themselves. Further if this Mosque is built there, then it would also set a good example that not all Muslims are alike and that they are certainly not all terrorists.
     
  17. Jingojolene

    Jingojolene Wayfarer, heartlander

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    Why shouldn't they want to see a mosque standing there?
    As I said: It isn't the same. It's not ALL muslims that are responsible - it's a minority of the religion,
    look at my comparison.
    I studied it before - the ordinary muslims do not appreciate or agree with what the terrorists and extremists are doing in the same way the catholics and protestants have always been at odds with each other.

    Imagine if it had been catholics that had done the bombing/plane crash. And then the protestants wanted to build a church there.
    The catholics wouldn't go around bragging "oh look there's a christian church near the site that we terrorised you what a victory" etc etc
    Because they're different, even though they can be generalised <- that's what it is, generalising. Muslims as a whole are not responsible for 9/11. Only the extremist sects.
     
  18. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    No :)

    1. I don't quite see the point of this or the reasoning behind it. How exactly does that work?

    2. Please do your homework. Fundamentalists have an even stronger sentiment against moderate Islam then they have against the West. Moderate schools, communities, Mosques get bombed all the time in Afghanistan and affiliate countries.

    Well, that is part of the issue at hand. Does it respect the victims enough? And, if not, does that weigh against the benefits of said community center?

    Much heared argument :)
     
  19. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Is this Muslim centre/mosque going to be the only religious building at ground-zero site?

    If there's multi-faith representation I don't see the issue. If it's only the Muslims then I think it's pretty insensitive or at best a 'we're bigger than you' political statement, hardly appropriate for a site where the families of victims are predominantly not of that faith.
     
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  20. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    1.It works in the way people might get angry by seeing a mosque where 9 years ago there were people dying because of an attack in the name of that religion.And simple people don't care if it's fundamentalists or not,they can find it offensive.

    2.I've done my homework Mr.Turambar.I had been reading books about the Arabic and muslim world way back before I even met you in this forum.And you,being a homework loving boy should know that Saudi Arabia plays both ways,they love having good ties with the West and they also love to see Islam expanding.Don't forget that most of the fanatic "jihadis" who go around the world taking part in conflicts against the "infidels" come from Saudi Arabia and generally the Gulf states.

    In Afghanistan,in Iraq,in Pakistan etc. mosques do get bombed by fanatics,but having a mosque raised near the Ground Zero area could be used by the fundamentalists to say things like "The Twin Towers fell and the real faith has risen from the ashes" etc. etc.

    3.Respect the victims.Respect the families of the victims.Liberals and leftists of America will probably embrace the decision to build a mosque there.What about the patriots and the republicans and the people who lost someone in that attack?