The five wizards???

Discussion in 'J.R.R. Tolkien / Lord of the Rings' started by HaldirofLorien, Feb 3, 2004.

  1. HaldirofLorien

    HaldirofLorien Member

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    O.k I recently thought that tolkein only gave the names of three of the Istari:- Rada , Gand and Saru but then i looked in the back of unfinished tales and see the names Alatar and Pollando?Did Tolekin create these are they wizards of the istari or did christopher tolkein just filll in the blanks???
     
  2. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    tolkien created them i believe there were five wizards i think its in the rotk appendicies alatar went to the south and pallando to the east gee i wonder why they didint return:D
     
  3. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    they were corrupted, it is largely believed that they were responsible for the easterlings joining sauron. They were blue by the way.
     
  4. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    ive heard that theory its probably true
     
  5. celebrimor

    celebrimor Elven Jewel-smith

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    The blue wizards are (along with Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, and the matter of Balrog wings) probably the most uncertain and unknown characters of Professor J.R.R. Tolkien's works. Being not referred to in the Lord of the Rings trilogy--and even only Saruman’s enraged comment about “the rods of the five wizards” (The Two Towers “The Voice of Saruman") indicates the possibility of their presence--only after the death of the Professor was some relevant information revealed about them. That moment occured when Unfinished Tales was published in 1980. This book contains a collection of tales and essays that Christopher Tolkien has recovered from his father's works and edited into a book. One of those essays concerned the Istari, another name for the wizard order. Inside this section of the book, finally some information was revealed about them; and indeed, this is the greatest source about information on the Istari as a whole.

    In the first text presented in Unfinished Tales, dated tentatively by Christopher Tolkien to 1954, the arrival of the wizards to the great havens is given. After a description of Saruman’s arrival, some information follows about the blue wizards:


    "...But there were others, two dressed in sea-blue...of the Blue little was known in the west [of Middle-earth], and they had no names save Ithryn Luin ‘the Blue Wizards’; for they traveled to the east with Curunír, but they never returned; and whether they remaine in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants it is not now known. But none of these chances were impossible to be.”
    There is another text appended to this, which Christopher Tolkien claims belongs to the same time. In it, Gandalf is stated to be the only successful Istar, which first hints at the idea that the Blue Wizards failed their mission: "Indeed, of all the Istari, only one remained faithful, and he was the last-comer" (Unfinished Tales). Here, Radagast is said to have strayed from his mission in becoming enamoured with nature. But for the Blue Wizards, there is no mention of their fate. Still, this text indicates that their fates must be one of failure, though the story of the Blue Wizards was still early in its development

    The next source, chronoligically in the development of the story, is in one of Tolkien's letters(which were published by Humphrey Carpenter in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien). In Letter 180, a draft dated January 14, 1956, Tolkien writes: "There is hardly any reference in The Lord of the Rings to things that do not actually exist on its own plane (of secondary sub-creational reality): sc. have been written." In a footnote labeled at the word exist, Tolkien adds "The Cats of Queen Berúthiel and the names and adventurers of the other 2 wizards (5 minus Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast) are all that I recollect." Thus, it is clear that at this point, really nothing had been determined, by the author himself, about who the Blue Wizards were (this letter even indicates less knowledge of the two wizardds than the first text gives above).

    Another letter fills the spot of the next significant source for information on the two wizards. Letter 211, written in October 1958, offers more specific information about their fate:


    "I really do not know anything clearly about the other two - since they do not concern the history of the N.W. I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
    In this text Tolkien does begin to create a little story for the Blue Wizards, or at least an explanation of their fates, somewhat like that given in the first Unfinished Tales text, though here their failure is given as the more likely outcome. Tolkien's suspicion in many cases can be taken as fact, but not always.

    In Unfinished Tales there is another text which reveals a bit more information about the Blue Wizards. The dating of the text is not known, though it is placed after the writing of The Lord the Rings (it could have been written before or after the above letter, but it is not entirely important for this discussion). The text is a description of a council in Valinor in which the sending of the wizards was decided, and some new information is revealed about the Blue Wizards. Their names here are Alatar and Pallando, both Maiar of Oromë (though Pallando was changed from being a Maia of Manods and Nienna). Originally, Alatar was the only chosen by Oromë, but Alatar chose to take Pallando "as a friend." No reason is given for their attribution to Oromë, but Christopher Tolkien here speculates: "Oromë of all the Valar had the greatest knowledge of the further parts of Middle-earth, and that the Blue Wizards were destined to journey in those regions and to remain there." This idea is the one present in Letter 211, so that there is no apparent contradiction between these texts, but the creation of the Blue Wizards' names is very interesting, and hints of the existence of much more information than before, when they were not even named.

    All of the above information taken from the Unfinished Tales points to the arrival in Middle-earth around 1050 years after the beggining of the third age, since they arrived approximately at the same time as the other wizards (and this date is given in Appendix B to Return of the King). However, in 1996, when the twelfth book of the History of Middle Earth, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, was published, a new perspective on the Blue Wizards was revealed--a perspective that ran against the very information contained in essentially all previous sources on the two missing wizards. Notes that were considered uninterpretable during the writing of Unfinished Tales (as is stated in both books)were finally deciphered by Christopher Tolkien. Being written in the last years of Professor Tolkien's life - 1972 - the coming of the blue wizards is changed even in the date. The text given in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, "Last Writings," is here in full. First there is a more general overview of the wizards:


    No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said. (what is most probable) ... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic]by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.
    Again, here, we have reference to Saruman's comment of the "Rods of the Five Wizards" and the general mysteriousness of the two remaining Istari. However, there also follows a much more specific account:


    "The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age.(26) Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador.But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir -up rebellion...and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East...They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarrayinbg the forces of the East...who would both in the Second and Third Age otherwise have ...outnumbered the West."
    It is now clear what Tolkien's last view on the matter (though last, like everything involving Tolkien's writings, does not simply mean finalized). The Blue Wizards arrived in the Second Age, around the year 1600 to aid in the wars against Sauron. They were not sent to help the forces of the Free Peoples in battle against evil, as the other wizards were, but to head into the east to destroy Sauron's base there amid the Easterlings. Whereas in Letter 211 the Ithryn Luin are left likely failing their mission, here the opposite is true, for they have become pivotal to the victories of the West in the Wars against Sauron by lessening Sauron's forces from the East. Also, their names are changed to Morinehtar and Romestamo.

    The matter of Glorfindel is not important here other than knowing that also in late writings of Tolkien it is explicitly clear that the Glorfindel of Gondolin was reincarnated, and he returned to Middle-earth likely at the time Sauron had forged the one Ring and was preparing war on the Elves who had discovered his secret (this will be discussed in full elsewhere). The Blue Wizards are said to have come with him to Middle-earth, but again, they were not sent to bolster Elrond's forces, but rather to weaken Sauron's, to disestablish his influence in the East.

    Ultimately, one can see that the Blue Wizards have had complicated history. Originally, nothing was known of them, and hardly a hint of their existence is in The Lord of the Rings. Soon, their mission to the East was established, and while at first they have even odds of succeeding and failing, it becomes very doubtful that they succeeded. However, in the ultimate texts, though the story is never fully achieved, the rumours of failure are eliminated; rather, the two wizards have become very important to the survival of Middle-earth and the defeat of Sauron. That this contradicts such statements as Gandalf being the only Wizard to remain faithful is clear, however, statements such as these are given at time when earlier ideas of the Blue Wizards were in consideration, and were not published in Tolkien's lifetime. It is suitably clear that Tolkien's final (or at least last) views on the Blue Wizards, Morinehtar and Romestamo, are those given in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, where he attributes to them an enormous role in the victories against Sauron.

    Source: http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofarda/bluewizards.asp
     
  6. LBenyamini

    LBenyamini New Member

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    thats one hell of an answer...
     
  7. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    I'll second that ;).
     
  8. celebrimor

    celebrimor Elven Jewel-smith

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    Thanks guys but i didn't read alll of it but now i think iw ill :)
     
  9. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    yes its too much, and I bet no one read it all. Celebrimbor please try and keep your posts shorter and to the point, my post said just about all that needed saying.

    No need to bring up Mandos (which was spelled wrong) or Glorfindel or Tom Bombadil or Orome.
     
  10. Fingolfin

    Fingolfin New Member

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    OK I seriously hope you're joking, critacising sombody for a post that is informative and factual is simply ridiculous no matter what the length is.

    I read all of it because I enjoy reading any Tolkiein history and if im not mistaken this IS the Tolkien general chat.

    And whats the deal with using a minor spelling mis-type as an extremely childish insult?

    If you proceed to reply threatening to ban me you only go so far as to prove my point
     
  11. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    I didn't critisis anyone, I merely asked him politly, to keep his posts on topic, this might be the Gen Tolk forum, but it is the five wizards thread, not the "everybody else that was a miniscule character thread". Pointing out the spelling error was not an insulte, obviously he copied this from somewhere, he even said he hasn't read it all, so therefore if the website he copied it from made a spelling error I question the source he copied it from.
    And I am sorry but I am just a humble Mod. I can't ban anyone, nor would I try to get onyone banned, all I can do is to give them a warning, which I did not do, I gave him a very small pre-warning. And yes the length does matter, especial if the post is off-topic. Now your post was of definetly not needed here if you have a problem with me, please pm me or my superior Boom. :draught:
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2004
  12. Votan8

    Votan8 New Member

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    Since this thread is about the five wizards, is it mentioned anywhere what happened to Radagast? Having read only the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings trilogy, I'm left wondering whether he left middle-earth or had any further mention after summoning Gandalf to Saruman. Thanks.
     
  13. celebrimor

    celebrimor Elven Jewel-smith

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    yeh there wasn't much info on radagast but he lived in rhosgobel the edge of mirkwood so he probaly left or died somewere
     
  14. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    I didn't think he could die unless we was killed by murder, in battle, whatever. I never really thought about it. Somehow I don't see him returning to Valinor, after all of it. But then again, maybe he did...
     
  15. Tolman Muggworts

    Tolman Muggworts claymore wielding hobbit

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    I believe he stayed in Middle-earth, on account of his being so enamored by the birds and beasts. Because of this he neglected his mission to help the inhabitants of Middle-earth and he focused on the wildlife instead.
     
  16. mormegil

    mormegil Art House Member

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    celebrimor, thanks for the info. i read it all and learned a lot. i knew of alantar and palando but not there last incarnation Morinehtar and Romestamo. As far as Tolkien stuff goes a lot of people only take what was published as factual (factual in relation to the tolkien universe) but i hold tolkiens last words or final intent as the way it was. thanks for the info.
     
  17. celebrimor

    celebrimor Elven Jewel-smith

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    np mormegil,but dont forget the info its alot lol
     
  18. Faeros

    Faeros Elven Ranger Captain

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    Actually Radagast never died, he just became so obssessed with nature that he forsook his duties to men and Elves. He became a hermit of the forest, basically. And as for the other wizards, it is NOT known what happened to them, save that they journeyed east. Some say they were corrupted and others that they were slain. No one knows...

    I think most people have missed this one little detail... but did you guys know that there aren't just five wizards. If you read the chapter in Unfinished Tales, "The Istari", Tolkien mentions that "the number of the order is not known, but the chief were five."

    Very intriguing, eh?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2004
  19. Elvenblademaster

    Elvenblademaster New Member

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    Look in tolkiens letters he said that Alatar and pallando jurneyed east and never returned and then he stated that it is beleived that they were corupted to sauron just like saruman. Now if tolkien "implied" that, thenm thats what happend in his mind. IT is fiction what he says goes.
     
  20. celebrimor

    celebrimor Elven Jewel-smith

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    faeros, thanks thaT REALLY HELPED. so now its clear to me that 5 were the cheifs.. thanks
     
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