The Afterlife of Other Middle Earth Residents

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Nienor, Jan 2, 2004.

  1. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    perhaps turin. mormegil is right in the sil it says "But deep in their dark hearts they hated their master the source of their misery" or something like that. I wonder why they just didint revolt?
     
  2. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    That's what I mean BW, altough I think they were too twisted to revolt against their Master. It's more like the blood-haze in Warcraft (if you are frmiliar with it) coupled to a deamon named Mannoroth (Morgoth, Mannoroth... I see a pattern). The Orcs in Warcraft can only master their own will (and become "good") after killing Mannoroth. And yes, one Orc did revolt him and killed the deamon, but that is only after a lot of spells of benign creatures. I think Orcs are coupled to Morgoth as is the the power of the Ring to Sauron. Only problem is: Morgoth is as immortal as it gets.
     
  3. Cromat

    Cromat Ash nazg durbatuluk

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    Tolkien stated since Melkor is all evil he can't create anything of his own, especially not a living being. So he took elves and corrupted their bodies and put some of his own being into them. That's how the orcs were created. Each orc does NOT have a soul, but rather his existence is a part of Melkor. The same goes for trolls, dragons, and all of his servants except the Balrogs, who were corrupted Maiar. In fact, everything in Middle-earth has a little of Melkor, which allows for decay and corruption. Since in Aman there is NO Melkor, and the land even contains the blessing of the Valar, there is no decay and everything is perfect. Because of this the Dark Lord split into two seperate beings: Melkor, the spirit of evil that dwells in everything in mortal lands, and Morgoth, the actual mind and form of Melkor. Because Melkor had spent his power all over the world and into his servants (in the same way that Sauron spent his power on the Ring), his own power was greatly reduced (although still very great as he was the most powerful spirit), and therefore he could be thrust to the Void by the Valar. When the Orcs die their being returns to Melkor outside the world. The Eagles and Ents are Maiar of Manwe and Yavanna, and return to them in Valinor when they die.
     
  4. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Nice theory, Cromat. Can you give a refference or a citate to go with this theory? Shood be very intersting; I can't remember reading something about it, and it does deserve studying. So either I've missed it or it is in a book I haven't read.
     
  5. Cromat

    Cromat Ash nazg durbatuluk

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    It is partly in the Letters of JRR Tolkien and in 2 articles about the metaphysics of Arda. These I think are found in HoME.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2004
  6. asap

    asap New Member

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    Ents are considered Maiar too? Didn't know that.

    Ents are not Maiar, they are spirits sents down by Yavanna to act as the guardians and shepards of tree's.
    They are Olvar.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2004
  7. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    Wow, I think Cromat hit the nail on the head there. It makes complete sense to me. But that is surprising about the ents and eagles. Where did Tolkien mention that?
     
  8. Cromat

    Cromat Ash nazg durbatuluk

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    The part about the Eagles and the Ents is in one of Tolkien's letters.
     
  9. ElvishTwin

    ElvishTwin Left-handed Scribe

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    Wow...everyone's smart here. Elves go to Valinor, I know that, but I don't know what happens to everyone else. :(

    ~ElvishTwin
     
  10. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Hey, I read in the Sil that Dwarven actually believed in their reincarnation. That's why about every Lord of Moria is called Balin. It is said that after they die, they will return a Dwarf and given the same name as they had before they died the last time.

    About Orcs: In the Hobbit, the Orcs in the cave recognise Orcrist, the sword of Thorin and shudder under the very sight. Elrond tells that it was the sword of the King of Gondolin, the city that was destroyed ages ago. Assumed that that is the last moment the blade was in action, Orcs can at least become very old.
     
  11. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    Reincarnation? Really? How interesting. Could you give me a chapter reference for that?

    About the Orcs, they wouldn't necesarily have to be very old. The legend (or fear) of it may simply have been passed on.
     
  12. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Sure I can, it's in the Sil, chapter Aulë and Yavanna, page 39 in the HC print.

    About the orcs, I find it hard to believe that, altough they never saw the sword in action, they do know both name and reputation of it.
     
  13. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    Well, here's something that will clear up a few things. I have this calendar that has a little tidbit of Tolkien information for everyday. It discusses things like Numenor, the Shire, Elves, etc. The one for today is titled "Orcs" and begins like this:
    "Orcs were bred in mockery of Elves, and, like Elves, they were fierce warriors and did not die naturally." So, I gather that means that unless they are killed in battle, an orc could live forever.
     
  14. havelockploz

    havelockploz With a preliminary 'P'

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    Elves, if they die (killed in battle), where do they go? I heard somewhere they are reincarnated into another form just like themselves. I find this very improbable because if it was true, then there would be a Feanor in the third age as well etc etc.
    What is your opinion?
     
  15. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    When Elves are killed in battle, they go to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor. They can be 'reincarnated' so to speak, although not all are. It's rather fuzzy...
     
  16. asap

    asap New Member

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    Didn't we cover this somewhere on the first page? Ummm, maybe not. Anyways, I've gotten the impression that the souls of elves can only be ''revived'' into a life in the Blessed Realms, and that they're not able to return to Middle-earth after they've died once... That explanation would solve the problem of having to deal with Feanor during the Third Age at the least ;)

    Anyways, we've covered elves and orcs pretty extensively, does anyone have any opinions about the afterlife of other races? Hobbits? Dwarves?
     
  17. Curufeanor

    Curufeanor Master Noldori Elvensmith

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    From what i remember from Morgoth's Ring, Orcs and Elves share the same fate, even by the third age. The 'houseless' spirits of the orcs only have to wait for a new body to take in the breeding process, whether its natural or they are 'grown' in pits. They also hear the call of mandos, but if they are born as orcs, their minds are enslaved by the dark lords, so they cannot be judged by their actions. They may wait for another body to take or submit to the calling of Mandos and be freed of the dark powers holding them.

    And your wrong Asap, as Legolas was killed in the Battle of Gondolin (Lost Tales II, i think), and yet returned in the second age.

    The process goes as so:
    1: Elf dies (in battle or because of great grief)
    2: Elven spirit returns to the halls of Mandos
    3: Elven spirit is given a choice of whether or not to live again
    4: Elven spirit takes a new body in birth
    5: Elf retains knowlege of previous life upon adult-hood
    6: Elf can also keep his given name, his previous-life name, or the name given to him by his mother
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2004
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