The Afterlife of Other Middle Earth Residents

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Nienor, Jan 2, 2004.

  1. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    We all know that elves endure until the end of Arda; men (including hobbits) escape from the circles of the world after death; eventually to sing with the second Music of the Ainur. But what happens to the other intelligent life forms in Middle Earth? Where do the dwarves, ents, great eagles, orcs, dragons and other creatures go after the end of their lives in Arda.

    Since dwarves are adopted children of Illuvatar, they should have the same afterlife as men. They are mortal also, although longer lives, and adopted children are entitled to the same rights and privileges of legitimate children.
     
  2. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    does that mean that Orc's share the same fate as elves? After all they were elves in the begining.
     
  3. Nienor

    Nienor Administrator Staff Member

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    Wouldn't that mean orcs are immortal and will last until the end of Arda? Scary thought... :eek:
     
  4. Lego

    Lego God amongst men

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    I think they go to heaven in a way, because gandalf tells pippin in rotk that death is not the end and that you go to a better place, thats heaven, I think tolkien wanted a bit of mystery in his books, people associate the undying lands as heaven but thats just a retirement home for elves and other races that are invited.
     
  5. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    Although one can hardly use that scene for any reckoning since it came from PJ and company. The only reliable source in making any headway is Tolkien.
    (Edit:Mind you if I have forgotten that that discussion actually took place in the books, my bad. But I don't recall it being there.)
     
  6. asap

    asap New Member

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    Hmm. Inetersting question. As I have understood Elves' spirits hear the call of Mandos after they die. It is for them to decide whether they follow that call or stay to ME as 'Houseless Spirits'.

    Now, if I were an Orc I would definetly not want to see Mandos after I die. So the only choice I would have would be staying to ME. But then again, when you think of all the Orcs that have been killed in numeorus wars, ME should be overflooded by Orc spirits by now. So now I'm thinking that maybe those spirits re-incarnated in new Orcs that were born, or, that maybe the Orcs were sent to join Morgoth in the abyss he was thrown into? Hmm.

    .
     
  7. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    It seems to me that the Orcs were able to multiply and increase their numbers. This would be contrary to the fates of Elves. So I wonder if the reincarnation thing still applies?
     
  8. Lady_of_Shalott

    Lady_of_Shalott Weaving the Magic Web

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    Probably not. I mean, Orcs are not elves aynmore. They have no elven qualities and so I would think their fate you be different than that of elves. Orcs are an entirely different race than elves.
     
  9. asap

    asap New Member

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    Yes, but Elves hadn't lost their ability to multiply either, their fading was a choice, as far as I have understood. And Elves didn't reincarnate, did they? They die, they go to Halls of Mandos, are there for some time, spend the rest of eternity in Blessed Realms. Orc spirits stay to ME and eventually find themselves new bodies.
    Or did I misunderstand your point?

    I think I agree with you and Lady that this theory of Orcs having Elf (or Elf-like) spirits might be a bit far-stretched. So now I'm thinking that if Orcs have no Elven qualities left, the spirits of Elves must have departed their bodies when Morgoth turned them into Orcs. Would this mean that Orcs have no souls?

    .
     
  10. Haldir

    Haldir Archer Extraordinaire

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    No soul? Interesting thought. It could be that as they are so evil they have given their soul to the devil sorta thing, or Morgoth in their case when they were made...
     
  11. Radagast

    Radagast Art House Member

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    But the spending the rest of eternity in the Blessed Realms would required them to be 'alive' again, would it not?

    from http://thetolkienwiki.info
    Interesting to note that it was the Elves choice or not to be reincarnated.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2004
  12. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    also remember that morgoth created the first orcs a while ago and with the continuious multiplying the elveness was probably knocke dout of them
     
  13. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    are you suggesting that the first orc's were Immortal?
     
  14. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    wellm yes because in the sil morgoth took elves and tortured and corrupted them so yes
     
  15. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    hmm, so there could have been Orc's that were like 10,000 years old.
     
  16. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    maybe but i think the original orcs are probably dead and i have another thing to ssupport the immortal orc theory in TTT or ROTK the orcs were talking about the siege of barad dur one orc was saying something about a Tark which on the bottom of the page meant numenoreaen or was short for numenorean
     
  17. Turin

    Turin Valar Morghulis

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    Interesting. I always considered Orc's a ruined race. Never thought of them as being immortal. I wonder if JRRT addressed it anywhere.
     
  18. byzantine warrior

    byzantine warrior Autokratos Konstantinou

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    i havent read his letters maybe he did there
     
  19. mormegil

    mormegil Art House Member

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    well i look at orcs as a ruined form of elves no longer with mortality and when they die there spirits are sent to the outer void where morgoth is. just a though.
     
  20. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    The Silimarilion tells us that altough Melkor corrupted the Elves into orcs and afterwards being evil all over, they hated their master for this. Wouldn't Manwë pardon these creatures becase it wasn't their fault? After all, they didn't have any choice to be good or evil. Their minds were twisted to be evil.
    Further more, I don't think any Orc would have surpassed the age of a normal man. Being orc was very dangerous; think only about what happened at Cirith Ungol. Even without war, they killed and raged each other. Design flaw, Morgoth?
     
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