Syrio and Jaqen

Discussion in 'A Song of Ice and Fire' started by Unraveller, Jun 21, 2005.

  1. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    A couple of questions to ponder...

    1. Do you think they the same person? Why? Why not?

    2. If they are not then how did Jaqen come to be in the Black Cells?

    3. Either way, who was the target? Was the contract completed?
     
  2. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    In the aSoIaF question thread, Yoadm provided an interesting link:

    http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/

    It's very interesting, and this link, http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jaqen.html is the one that deals with Syrio and Jaqen. I think that the site contains very sensible arguments and counterarguments on many debates in aSoIaF, so I strongly encourage you to check out the entire site. However, the site contains MASSIVE spoilers, so you probably shouldn't check it out unless you've read all three books.
     
  3. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Unfortunately I'm behind the GFWoC so all Angelfire and Geocities sites are blocked. Can anyone supply a mirror site?
     
  4. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    I don't know about a mirror site, but I posted the argument.





     
  5. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Pretty much what I was thinking. A lot of the objections can be overruled, we know so little about the Faceless men and how they operate. He could have been placed in Braavos as a long term undercover agent, what better way for a large, rich and powerful assassination network to function? Have agents take positions as the right-hand men/bodyguards of public figures. Once payment is received it's very easy to fulfil the contract. You may say that's a cumbersome and expensive way to do business but remember how much they charge... Why did he leave the Sealord in that case? Well, old age/disease does carry off a large number of people, or he could have completed a contract on him. No more curious than Syrio's reasons for being in King's Landing and taking a job as Arya's teacher. Why did he take the job if he is Jaqen? Holiday? Fun? Lying low? His 'promises to keep' quote seems to refer to returning to HQ for another assignment as he tells her that she should come back with him, and he only gives her the coin when she says she can't.

    That's another point, could he have been recruiting?

    So Question number 2 remains, how did Jaqen end up in the Black Cells if he isn't Syrio?

    And number 3, if the Sealord hadn't just died (at his hand, another's or naturally), or he isn't Syrio, who was/is his target? Or was he recruiting?
     
  6. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    To me, the biggest reason people use this theory is that we didn't see Syrio die. And to me, thats really not enough proof. Ive read this theory before and read it again now, and while it is intriguing, I don't really think theres enough evidence to say either way.

    Im going to have to go with my gut and say that no, Jaqen is not Syrio Forel. Syrio is most likely dead. Unfortunently.

    But then again, who knows, GRRM has surprised me before.
     
  7. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    I don't think that they're the same people, but I do believe that Syrio is still alive.

    And knowing the type of person Cersei is, she'd most likely gloat if someone who opposed her die, taking a minor victory (Syrio's death) over the loss of her major (Arya escaping). But instead, she sounds annoyed and frustrated, indicating that her plan collapsed about her. "Interfered" is also an interesting word to use, and indicates that Syrio is still alive.

    That might be wishful thinking on my part, though. ;)
     
  8. Akkarin

    Akkarin Black High Lord

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    I definately think they are the same person. My reasons are silly but it's mainly in the speech. There was just something about him that sort of warmed to Arya and I think it's because he taught her when he was Syrio. Lame reasons but it's still what I think.
     
  9. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    Very lame reason. They talk the same because they are both Bravoosi. It'd be like me meeting two Indian people and thinking they must be the exact same person because they're accents are the same.
     
  10. Adina

    Adina <img src=http://www.thefantasyforum.com/images/nub

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    Ease up dear, he did say it was a lame reason.

    I have to agree somewhat though. That's the first thing that made me think they might be the same. When Jaqen took his face off, well I just thought it even more.
     
  11. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Yeah, that's one theory, they sound alike because he wanted Arya to feel a sympathy for him/he wanted to give her a clue.

    But still, what was he doing in Westeros?
     
  12. Adina

    Adina <img src=http://www.thefantasyforum.com/images/nub

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    Imho, I'd have to say it has something to do with him looking out for Arya. Because, as you said, why else?
    There's apparently plenty of theories going around but still, the very first thing that makes you thinkof them as one, is the likeness in which they speak. And although Elan had a valid point about it being because they were both from the same place, it's still the first likeness you realise.
     
  13. Akkarin

    Akkarin Black High Lord

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    Yeah you have a good point. Like I said, lame reason but it's originally what I thought. Like Adina said, it's the first thing that gets you thinking and then there's a bunch of other reasons that follow after. I must have read wrong sorry because I thought we were saying why we 'first' thought they could be the same person.
    Again, sorry. I'll read it better next time :)
     
  14. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    To tell you the truth, I never even considered the possibility of Jaqen being Syrio until I read it on the ASOIAF boards.
     
  15. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Ok, but you still haven't answered questions 2 and 3 EMT, how did Jaqen get locked up and what was a Faceless man doing in Westeros?
     
  16. Adina

    Adina <img src=http://www.thefantasyforum.com/images/nub

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    Just wanted to apologise to Elan. I clearly misread his post to Akkarin and thought it meant something it didn't. Sorry champ :D
     
  17. Elan Morin Tedronai

    Elan Morin Tedronai The Forsaken

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    Hmmm, I really don't know why a Faceless Man would be in Westeros. Obviously he's their to whack someone, but whom ? It would have to be someone very rich, as we know the Faceless Men don't come cheap. Are there any groups in the Free Cities who would have an enemy in Westeros ? What threat could they pose from so far a distance ?

    As for how he got locked up ? Who knows, maybe it's all part of his plan.


    EDIT : Its ok, Adina, I know you think im a mean, cold-hearted monster :p
     
  18. Akkarin

    Akkarin Black High Lord

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    Well thanks for the defense Adina but I knew what Elan Morin Tedronai meant.
    I'm surprised that you didn't think to link them together though Elan Morin Tedronai, you seem like you've read the books thoroughly.

    I think the same about Jaqen. Someone with his abilities (not that we really know what they specifically are) wouldn't need assistance in being let free don't you think? It must be, as you said, some part of the plan. Whether it's to keep an eye on Arya or not, who can tell?
     
  19. Subterranean

    Subterranean New Member

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    I think Jaqen was probably the one that killed Balon Greyjoy, most likely hired by Euron Crowseye, and these were the other matters he had to attend to after leaving Arya. Most of this comes from The Ghost of High Hearts dream/prophecy of the man with no face (faceless) waiting on a swaying bridge (the bridges of the iron islands) with a crow with seaweed hanging from its wings (Euron Crowseye). I forget the exact wording so excuse me if I missed something.

    As for why he was locked up in the first place, I don't really know, could have been the plan all along, to use the nights watch to get further north, closer to the iron islands and his target. But I do think that without Arya's help he would have died in the fire, mainly because of the cost of the reward he gives her. Three kills from a faceless man would cost a staggering amount of money.
     
  20. Unraveller

    Unraveller <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><

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    Agreed, it looks likely, although the exact timing is strange. He did say he had to leave and that's why he had to hurry Arya along. Unless Euron was waiting to take him to the Iron Islands. If he didn't meet up with Euron before he killed Balon then the timing is very strange. But why did he want to bring Arya?

    The only reason I can think of for him to get himself locked up (in the Black Cells no less) is if his contact(s?) was or were in there themselves. Rorge, maybe Biter too.