Switzerland flag issue

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Foinikas, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    You need to remember it's your heritage and ethnic/national identity you wish to preserve, and I think I should add, propagate. Because of this influx of immigrants your national identity is changing. In America our national identity is a melting pot, a term that was already in use by the 1780s.

    "What then is the American, this new man? That the American is one who leaving behind him all his ancient prejudices and manners, receives new ones from the new mode of life he has embraced, the government he obeys, and the new rank he holds. He becomes an American by being received in the broad lap of our great Alma Mater. Here individuals of all nations are melted into a new race of men, whose labors and posterity will one day cause great changes in the world." - J. Hector St. John de Crevecoeur, Letters from an American Farmer.
     
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    This isn't America ;)
     
  3. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    America was 'global' long before it became fashionable; though for the longest time people were "equal" under the constitution but in a practical sense things were very unequal... the term often used was "equal but separate" by those who could not cotton to the new American landscape. We fought an extremely bloody Civil War over it.

    You can resist change, but you'll never stop it.
     
  4. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Maybe someone can stop it.No matter what,it's worth fighting for something one considers valuable.
     
  5. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    What's so 'valuable' about stagnation?

    I have no problem with you guys wanting to rid yourself of illegal immigrants, but blaming immigrants for your current state of economic woes and undercutting national identity is bizarre.
     
  6. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I think that the struggle to preserve national identity could rightfully be identified as being nationalism, yes :)

    The undemocratic part doesn't apply to nationalism. I think that nationalism is a valid ideology within democracy, as long as the democratic rights of all citizens are safe. When I said something about undemocratic (the ruling of the people), it was against theocracy (the ruling of the god(s)). Which, as you will note is, by definition, correct. In this case, I plead selective treatment of religions can't be secular and, thus, must be theocratic, making the statement concerning the Swiss flag correct. Please note that the odds of there being any issue regarding the flag would be very slim if immigrants and their religion(s) would be dully accepted.
     
  7. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    It could easily be called patriotism ;)
     
  8. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    There is not much differentiation in the Dutch language between a nationalist and a patriot. Both have been under heavy suspicion since WWII, at least untill the assassination of Pim Fortuijn in 2001.

    I suppose a nationalist thinks his country is great; a patriot loves his country, but possibly for other reasons than it's greatness, or lack thereof. One might even say unconditionally.

    However, this diverts from our discussion. Your lack of comments has me believe that you, for once, agreed with the general picture I've painted in my previous two posts? :p
     
  9. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Nah,I just find the idea of immigrants demanding the flag of the country which they found "shelter" at either legally or illegally,one way or another,to be changed...well outrageous.It's very provocative,that's what I think.Plus it adds to the tension of communities if there are certain problems with the country and immigrants.Don't know what's going on in Switzerland but I think in France,Greece and maybe Italy as well such tensions exist.
     
  10. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Oh, it's provocative all right. I'm no Switzerland expert; however, it looks like these guys felt forced to make a bolder statement than usual, simply because no one listened when they nicely asked.

    And sure, there is tension. But that tension is not taken away by silence, no. There needs to be discussion, dialogue. And I think these second-generation made this statement just to be taken seriously, to be invited into the discussion. Statements like these give you media coverage. It'd probably gets you invited to some prime time talk shows. It would in The Netherlands.

    The way I see it, it's an outrage such a stunt needed to be pulled to be able to take part in discussion. Discussion should be open podium full stop.


    I don't think these guys carry a particular grudge against the Swiss flag, though. The statement is probably a mere bargaining chip, which symbolises quite something else.
     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    If that's the case then it's really sad on both sides,on the immigrants for being such...sorry for the expression,I really hate it but I think they act like "drama queens" here or however the americans say it...and the Swiss maybe...MAYBE haven't listened to the problems of the immigrants.

    But unfortunately we don't know much about Switzerland and that country's problems when it comes to interior politics and immigration stuff.Darn,how come nobody knows a lot about that country? :p
     
  12. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    So you don't know much about Switzerland's response to the immigrants, yet you judge them as dramaqueens... Isn't that a bit... Well I don't want to make any comments in case I'm wrong....
     
  13. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    If the story with the flag is indeed true,yes they are at least drama queens,at the worst...out of their place.You have to imagine that a group of immigrants of another culture and religion demands from YOUR country(not just yours Anakin,everybody's generally)to change their flag and/or other important national identity/religious things for them.That sounds and feels preposterous!!
     
  14. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    It depends on the circumstances, in my opinion, because they might feel discriminated. It wouldn't be unlikely. Not saying that this is the case with Switzerland, but like you I don't know enough about it. I think immigration is often looked upon in a wrong way often. People often look at it only in a negative way. And I think that's only because it's often seen as a negative word in general. Immigration is not a bad thing in general. That's often how societies, even countries were formed. I don't think I have to give people history lessons on that. And during that evolution of the growing of countries or societies in general many flags have changed. Kakashi says America changed its flag because of independancy, and because they were not a country, but a colony before that. But are these the only reasons why you should change a flag... If the immigrants feel like they have a good reason the flag should be changed then I don't think I should already be looking negatively at it, but oversee it in an objective way and see what actually happens. Until then I will make no judgement on these immigrants or Switzerland itself.
     
  15. Kakashi

    Kakashi The Fighters Guide House Member

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    Changing a flag when you become independent isn't changing a flag at all. You don't have choice over what you're flag looks like when you're a colony. Once you gain independence you create a completely new flag to show you are now independent.

    The only reason to change a flag is if there is a very good reason, like gaining independence. Or because it has something offensive, like a swastika on it. I mean if most of the country agrees to change the Swiss flag I guess they should be able to change it. But that doesn't seem to be the case. And even if it were i would still not visit switzerland :p
     
  16. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Yeah and changing a flag that just screams Christanity is not worth changing when the society is not build up from only Christians? I can't even tell how many percent are Christians in Switzerland or other countries that have a flag with a christian cross on it for that matter. Likely they're in the minority if the other people are all from another religion or no religion at all. But people tend to be very sensitive when it comes to religion and they take it as very insultive as if these immigrants are almost demanding the Christians to change their religion.
     
  17. Kakashi

    Kakashi The Fighters Guide House Member

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    It's a cross. It's a cultural, not religious icon. Like I said earlier, it's not a crucifix. Whether you're christian or atheist you have to realize that the cross is a symbol for Europe.

    Plus, it's not forcing anyone to convert. No, not at all. It's not like people in Switzerland have to have the flag sewn into every bit of their clothing. No. And if they are indeed immigrants it is only a matter of time before they start realizing that it is a flag that represents Switzerland, not the church. And at this point they will start to be proud of the flag instead of hating it.
     
  18. bloodfiredeath

    bloodfiredeath Die by the Sword

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    I agree.
    I think all nations that have embraced multiculturalism with open arms in recent decades will probably have to endure these types of issues in the near future.
     
  19. Kakashi

    Kakashi The Fighters Guide House Member

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    It kind of puts me in mind of all the talk about whether or not In god we trust should be on american money
     
  20. bloodfiredeath

    bloodfiredeath Die by the Sword

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    Remember that meme which compared USD (With In God we trust on it) and the Pound (With Darwin on it)
    Sort of was a Creationism versus Evolution thing.

    edit: This one
    [​IMG]
     
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