Switzerland flag issue

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Foinikas, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    The topic is everywhere on the net,you guys can just type "switzerland immigrants flag" and you'll get lots of results,it's so sad that people who were allowed to settle to a country and live a better life than what they could in their countries are trying to bring down that new homeland to their own likings instead of really respecting it.
     
  2. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    I typed that exact phrase into google, Foi. First result: the article you linked. Results two to five: militaryphotos.net, westernyouth.org (where the immigrants are described as Muslim with no supporting evidence provided), f*ckfrance.com (yes, really) and adifferentopinion.net (again, the immigrants described as Muslim. Again, no evidence provided). These are all opinion forums and none of them provide any evidence for their claims other than that one story in the newspaper Aargauer Zeitung, which isn't even a national newspaper. Not one source, including the newspaper, mentions the level of support the group has (my guess would be in the region of 5-10 people, personally), there is no named spokesperson or representative of the group cited and there is no mention of when or where this group apparently made this demand. It has all the classic signs of a non-story over-hyped by certain sections of the media because it accords with their preconceived prejudices.

    Everyone's talking about it? Everyone in the xenophobic, fascist-lite online communities you seem to frequent, you mean.
     
  3. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Fascist-lite?Xenophobic?Excuse me for not being as liberal as you,I prefer to be cautious rather than caught in the sleep,in a few words I'd like the foreigners and immigrants know their limits rather than push it to the limits.

    Rumor or not,big group or small,I think what is of most importance in the thread is that we discuss this action,immigrants demanding the change of a national symbol rather than discussing how real or how strong the demand is.Don't you think?

    Go search even more and see that many people in many forums and pages are talking about it before you rush to talk about fascist-lite bullocks and the like.
     
  4. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    You have produced no credible evidence that foreigners and immigrants do not know "know their limits". This isn't about being liberal or not, it's about you making lazy, unsubstantiated statements and then claiming that you're just being cautious.


    Rumour or not??? So we should talk about how terrible it is that immigrants want to change a national symbol without first verifying that a significant number of immigrants actually want to change a national symbol?


    I did search, if you read my previous post. I quoted the top five hits on the subject. It doesn't matter how many people are talking about it; there is no evidence. Literally. None at all. You can work yourself up into a fury of righteous indignation about it if you want, but the only source is one reference in an obscure Swiss newspaper which gives no details whatsoever about when or where this claim was made. Also, the fifth highest hit for the subject is a forum with 280 members. Even if every member of this forum was talking about it (and they don't seem to be), that is not "many people".


    As for "fascist-lite", look again at those sources:

    Tundratabloids, whose tagline claims that there are keeping tabs on "Islamic hegemony in Scandinavia", among other things. "Hegemony" is a synonym for "predominance". This website is claiming that Islam is the predominant ideology in Scandinavia. That is bullsh*t. It is also extremely xenophobic.

    Youth for Western Civilisation, whose tagline is "Defending the West" (from what is unspecified). Its mission statement claims that "Youth for Western Civilization is a campus youth movement with a mission to organize, educate and train activists dedicated to the revival of Western Civilization." Concept of the "revival of Western Civilisation"? Implied militarism? Indoctrinating young people? All extremely fascist.

    F*ckfrance.com. Not particularly fascist, admittedly, but do you really think a forum with a title like that is a reliable source? (BTW, I was quite amused to discover that one of the top current discussions on this forum is "Are Irish minorities? Are they really white?". Not fascist, exactly, but weird.)

    The fifth highest hit for this topic is adifferentforum.net. This doesn't give much of a mission statement so it's hard to judge. However, they did change "immigrant" into "muslim immigrant" without supplying any justification for the change, which suggests that they don't care much about accuracy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2011
  5. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Being unreasonably paranoid of foreigners and immigrants is xenophobic.
    It's why Switzerland is the way it is, it's why they've remained among the most conservative countries on the planet.

    Wrong.
    The real story is that there is no story.
    Escalating what is merely a fringe group's goal into a honest-to-goodness movement is what xenophobic nationalists like to do in keeping their status quo.

    I'm first generation American, my parents immigrated to the USA just before I was born. Being that I'm white, and from Scottish and Canadian parents, I'm easily accepted as fully American. If I were yellow, brown, or black, I would not have it so easy... because of people like you.
     
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  6. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    Well said, Sparrow, and far more succinct than I was.
     
  7. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    Chill out guys!!! Do we have a Swiss that wants to talk about that matter???
     
  8. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    What I did is see this topic on Facebook then typed down on the google something,found some sites one of them being islamic as well and then thought it would be a nice topic for discussion.I didn't sit down to find out how many people exist in this group and who runs this darned group,I don't live in Switzerland.It was a good topic for discussion,but you give me the idea that I'm showing you the forest and you're looking at my finger.

    You'll get a variety of sites on google,most of the times according to the words you type.


    ----->Everyone's talking about it? Everyone in the xenophobic, fascist-lite online communities you seem to frequent, you mean.<-----

    This was your phrase that made me angry.I don't usually...."hang out" on fascist communities missy.Just so you f*cking know,alright? I'm a patriot,I'm a
    pro-monarchist if you wanna say in the romantic kind of way,but I'm not a fascist.
     
  9. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I agree Anduil. I think we should really calm down on the matter. Come on, one article appears and the whole thing blows out of proportion. Really, it might be an interesting subject to talk about but I think it's still just something that will fair over peacefully in due time. It's just something you got to deal with and move on. And let Switzerland deal with it. It's not that I don't care, but I'm sure that the country can deal with it themselves in their own way.
     
  10. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    The Swiss are sooo neutral they won't even care about their own interior politics and matters :p
     
  11. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    OK, I accept that using the term "fascist" was unfair and unnecessarily provocative. That being said, it's a reasonably accurate description of the website you linked to in the original post and the I did get the impression from the first post that that's where you'd found the story. I'm glad to know that you're not in the habit of frequenting that kind of site.

    Frankly, if you do start a topic for discussion I think it's your responsibility to verify that the story is reasonably well substantiated. It's not like I spent hours discrediting you; it took barely a minute to find the source of the claim. And learning how to evaluate a source is a vital skill in life and something everyone should practice.

    You don't seem to understand that it can't be a "good topic for discussion" if it's not true. If it's not true, then it's simply complaining about foreigners and immigrants without any justification. Much as you did when, even after numerous people had pointed out that the story was extremely dubious, you kept claiming it was true and complaining about immigrants who don't respect their adopted country or who "push their limits". That was unjustified. And that is, as Sparrow correctly pointed out, xenophobic by definition.
     
  12. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    The flag topic links with the Switzerland "no mosque" fuss which in term links with the whole Europe vs immigrants crisis,where do immigrant rights stop,where do they ask more than they should and we're talking about mostly muslim immigrants because generally...we all know that it's mostly the muslim immigrants who demand more and can't adapt to European societies,like in France for example...where they also have a lot of matters or in Greece and Serbia,Switzerland,to a smaller extent Germany maybe...and maybe Netherlands?
     
  13. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    No, Foi, you still don't get it. It can't link with the "Europe vs immigrants crisis" because there is no evidence that a significant number of immigrants want to change the Swiss flag. There is even less evidence that this fringe group is Muslim (I only read the original newspaper article in Google translate's version of English, but I got the impression they were secular, actually). The issue over immigrants wanting to change the Swiss flag can't be part of the "Europe vs immigrants crisis" if immigrants don't want to change the Swiss flag. There is absolutely no evidence that any more than a couple of people do want to change the Swiss flag, so it is a non-issue. And if it is a non-issue then it is unrelated to any bigger issues. Clear?


    The thing is, Anakin, there are two distinct variants of the subject here. The first one, which is the one I'm objecting to above, is the idea that immigrants are coming to Switzerland and demanding that the flag be changed. Beyond a fringe group (apparently), this isn't actually happening. However, sites like the one Foi linked to at the outset are claiming that THE MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS ARE COMING TO OUR LAND AND SUBJUGATING CHRISTIANITY AND MAKING US CHANGE OUR SYMBOLS (AND THIS IS GOING TO LEAD TO THE DOWNFALL OF WESTERN CIVILISATION)!!!!!!!!!!! OK, some slight exaggerations there, but you get what I mean. This kind of unjustified hysteria is damaging and that's why I challenged it.

    However, the second variant, the one you were discussing above and which I agree is an interesting topic, is the question of whether states should adapt their symbols in light of changing values. For example, whether a now-secular society should change its Christian flag because it no longer represents that society. This question actually has nothing to do with immigrants; it's a issue that's relevant for all members of society. The mention of immigrants in the original article just attracted the kind of people who immediately see "immigrant" and think "downfall of western civilisation".
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2011
  14. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    It's silly when countries change their flags often just like that,for example Iraq kept changing the flag all the time,Saddam introduced his handwriting on it,then the writing changing to Kuffa caligraphy then they took off the stars because "it reminded people of the Baath regime" etc.

    The little information that we have now is that a certain group of people in Switzerland,probably muslim immigrants from what little we know,want that change.So that's what we're discussing.Would you allow such a change by immigrants in your country?
     
  15. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    No, no matter how many times you say it, we don't have that information at all. We certainly cannot assume that they are Muslim (like I said, I got the impression that they were secular). This could be a group of half a dozen people for all we know. And if this was abstract discussion as to whether one should change the symbols of a country that would be OK. However, my problem is that you're criticising immigrants in general on this basis. You claimed that they lacked respect for their adoptive country and that they were "pushing their limits" and yet you don't know who these people are. It is unfair to make that kind of judgement when we know so little. Would you retract your accusation that immigrants lacked respect and were pushing their limits if we discover that this group consists of 10 Christian guys who emigrated from Poland?

    IMO, the citizens of a country have the right to change their symbols if they so wish. That would certainly include any immigrants who are citizens of that country.
     
  16. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    As a sidebar... here in America we are of course made up of 50 States, each with their own State Constitution, State Laws, State Bird, State Flower, State this and that, and State Flag. Some of these State Flags had remnants of their Confederate past and opposition to the Union... I think it's fair to say these flags needed changing. In fact most of our State Flags have changed many times over the decades to reflect changing attitudes and a much more diverse population.

    The flag of Florida...
    View attachment 7715
     
  17. Kakashi

    Kakashi The Fighters Guide House Member

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    comparing a symbol that brings up memories of racism and slavery to a cross?
    There is NO comparison to be made. If it were a crucifix I may be more apt to understand, but it's a CROSS.
    (even if it were a crucifix it still wouldn't warrant that comparison)
     
  18. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Maybe, the Greek, Serbian, German and Dutch societies failed to adapt to the immigrants? ;)


    I think you get to the core of the debate at hand, but, to my estimation, missed the point entirely.

    It would appear to me that the Swiss second generation... - what was it again? - is bringing counter argument against the nationalistic tenure in Switzerland. I would think they are smart - smart enough to know that their point of action will never take off. I suspect they want to point something out, which has little to do with that flag. For instance that immigrants (muslims?) have a voice. And that they have a right to use it. That a large minority is anti-Islam and, thus, theocratic. Which, in itself, is undemocratic (which is totally not the topic of this debate, before anyone starts). Even though democracy is turned towards to limit the rights of immigrants and fellow-citizens.

    I like the fact that they used the flag as their object of interest. It's poetic. After all, the flag is a symbol to start with. And used as a symbol in another context entirely. It also calls into question the identity of the Swiss, which the flag represents. Their points seems to be that Switzerland must be theocratic having such a flag. And to part with this (generally) undesirable form of gouvernment, they need to part with that flag. Which, given the circumstances, is an excellent point to have made.

    That the right-winged European internet press jumps on the case as being proof of immigrants trying to take over is typical. But, for themselves untowards, failing to see what is much likelier at hand.






    Did anyone, by the way, care to check how many people this association actually represent?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  19. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Since when is the preservation of heritage and ethnic/national identity something "nationalist" and in a few words "undemocratic" when people support their own rights to go against a part(immigrants)who historically and ethically has no right to demand changes in the society that has willfully or not accepted them and gave them the right to live and work in their land? ;)
     
  20. bloodfiredeath

    bloodfiredeath Die by the Sword

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    I suppose at the end of the day we are all immigrants from somewhere at some point in our history.
     
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