Suicides

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by anonymous, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    I just read an article in local newspaper, that states that suicide is a psyhological disease, and that people should be cured. The idea is to allow suiced-hotline companies to track the calls and then to watch the callers.
    On the one side it`s a good idea, but on the other..Is`nt it against the law?
    Then the article states that most people commit suicide either because it is the easiest way out, or they lack the attention. I think the reason why people do it, is because the most part of society is f^cked up and judge people, I honestly dont think that it is a disease, or that it should be "cured". The only cure that i see is overall education of society.

    So what do you think, on this hard topic?
     
  2. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    There is as you point out obviously a large gap in understanding when it comes to suicide. I think the ultimate reason varies from person to person and can't always be categorized without knowing that individual's full story. But like serial killers it is hard to identify real reasons because you can't ask the dead anything so instead it is made into a false science.

    I also think that tracking the callers is a great way to deter people from calling to begin with, it would make people feel unsafe with their last resort to confide in. I'd also contest that I don't see depression as that much of a disease either. So many people go through at least one bout of it and it almost seems like chronic depression is more of a personality thing to me. You don't see charismatic people as always being branded manic as often. It is just that people tie depression or sadness to sloth and demonize this kind of thinking rather than embrace it as being introspective and melancholy could slow down production lines.

    I believe that severe cases can involve chemical imbalances in the brain but it is either the times or human evolution, I think more and more people are willing to admit feelings of depression or their suicidal thoughts.
     
  3. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    Suicidal thoughts can often be so closely linked with depression anyway, so it's not a straightforward thing to be able to just diagnose and cure. I'm one of the ones who went through suicidal thoughts in my teens and early adulthood. It was a terrible time, and even I can't fully articulate the why of it. Just happy to be at the other end of it all really. Did I just get tired of those thoughts? Have I grown out of it? Is there some other factor that hasn't occurred to me? Who can say? Certainly no scientist. Or any other kind of person for that matter.

    I think education is only part of the answer. Knowing stuff about this only gets you so far. Actually knowing and spending time with someone who's going through this is a far more powerful and meaningful thing. When you see that there's a living, breathing, hurting person behind all the suicide statistics you read about in the paper, suddenly it gets more personal, and rightly so. Unless we all make this personal, and refrain from burdening the suicidal with "solutions" (so that they'll hurry up and get over it), the better off they might feel. Rather than seeing themselves as some kind of impediment to society, why don't we in society take the time to sit with them, listen to them, and show them that they matter? And as genuine friends, not mere "charity projects".

    Yeah, I know I'm coming from an emotional standpoint, but I've been through it so this is a bit personal for me. If only I'd had someone, just SOMEONE who would've been willing to sit with me and be my friend... rather than the people I got who tried to fix me fast so that they could get back to their busy, super important lives. I might've felt like rejoining society a little bit sooner in life rather than having to go through that difficult process now (at the beginning of my forties).
     
  4. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    Wow, that actually made me sad ( I hope I will not offend you) In most time I am sort of light-headed, and I have the ability to not care what other think about me. What I do have my own reasons, and I sort of dont care what other think about it.
     
  5. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    That's a good attitude to have, anon. I'm learning to not get so hung up on what I think others might be thinking about me or things that I care about. It's a work in progress.

    I think the thing that folks may not recognise about suicidal people is that they're not this way just to inconvenience everyone else. There's a terrible amount of guilt that can be placed on someone going through such depression because everyone else wonders why they just don't simply "snap out of it". And the person going through this then thinks, "Well, yeah, why don't I just snap out of it? What's WRONG with me?" And it becomes a vicious cycle of self loathing and even more depression. They need our support, not our opinions on "what they need to do to just get over it, okay!"

    We want to get over it. We just aren't always convinced that it's worth it if the rest of society doesn't care if we live or die (as we perceive it).
     
  6. Lord Yuan

    Lord Yuan Death-Thousand+

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    This X10000.

    An outward perspective has so much bias when it comes to the personal struggle of somebody else. Like Anon said before people like to brand it as being because they want attention or have decided to take the "easiest" way out.

    Personally if I were going to do myself in it wouldn't be because of either of those reasons or because people judge people, still there are cases where these things are true for some people, but it is such a subjective thing that varies from person to person.
     
  7. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Well I got the same. Attention seeking, and to a part it was. Not because I wanted it so desperately, I wanted help, because no solution is coming and when you got a medical condition, you can't pop up a solution yourself, but to live with it no matter how bad it is. In a way I do still think that it would have saved and sometimes I do wonder if it would still save a lot of people a lot of pain, cause these people have to live with me. First my parents, now Padmé and it's not easy for both me or her. So is it selfish that I wanted to take my life to save myself the trouble and them? It's something I ponder about when I think back of my past. I've learned now to live with my condition, thx to some people like my parents and Padmé. But at that time in the past, so I can say now that I've found my solution that I was calling for, through other means. Through hard needed support. But thinking back on the past I wouldn't say that it was an easy way out, because in the end most of the time I just couldn't do it. I think people sometimes don't know that committing suicide isn't easy. It was very difficult for me to finally almost pull it off. I am still opposed to the idea, but I don't judge people who have tried it, but I would certainly not recommend to try it On the contrary.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  8. olivia_the_lamb

    olivia_the_lamb Moderator Staff Member

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    I've been suicidal in the past. In fact, I was committed to a mental hospital for 7 days because of an attempt to kill myself. It was a feeble attempt and the only reason anyone found out about it was because I tried to call off work and when my boss asked why, I broke down. She drove me to the hospital and I didn't realize that by filling out their questionnaire that I would become a "liability" and have to be admitted into the facility against my wishes. I actually stopped in the middle of my attempt because I realized how many people would suffer from my killing myself, when all I wanted was peace and quiet and no more pain. It was selfish, but what is life worth if I hate myself?

    I'm bipolar and my mind has the ability to play tricks on me. Someone might really like me as a friend, but my brain will turn against me and convince me that the person hates me. Things like that. And self worth is normally a laughing matter because I have so little of it.

    Luckily, all of that is in the past and I can hardly say I'm bipolar anymore because I've overcome it through therapy and practices of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy on my own. I'm hardly ever effected by my illness anymore, and when I am, I can deal with it because I don't let it cause me suffering anymore.

    The only other times I wanted to truly kill myself was after something horrendous happened to me and during my serious bipolar relapse coupled with a crippling two month long dissociative episode.

    Like Eph said, the reasons are different for everyone. Suicide itself is not an illness, but there are many mental illnesses that bring about the want for death. I had to learn how to manage this on my own. I had no one to talk to but my therapist, and if it weren't for her, you guys would have lost me years ago. I've been there for many people who have wanted to commit suicide. I can't tell you how many 3 AM phone calls I've had from friends telling me they just couldn't handle it anymore and they had nothing to live for.

    Everyone is selfish. Especially the people who call suicide victims selfish. Who are you to say that what they did was selfish? You are selfish because you're only thinking about what you had and what you now lost, not that the person is no longer in pain.

    Suicide is very sad because if the person can just hang on and get through the rougher parts of their lives, they can open their eyes to a beautiful world. I'm so glad that I didn't kill myself. I never would have seen the trivial, but wonderful, things I've seen in my short life. I never would have fully grasped what it meant to be human. I never would have understood so much that I do now because of philosophy.

    To me, there's always a million reasons to kill yourself, but there's always at least, AT LEAST, one reason not to kill yourself, and if you let it, that one reason will evolve into more reasons, eventually leaving you with a few reasons to kill yourself, but a million reasons not to do it.

    As sad and full of trouble as my life has been, I am happier than ever simply because I am alive.


    That's all.

    /Liv out >_>
     
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  9. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Well said. Same applies to me.
    Live long and prosper!;)
     
  10. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    Mental illness is exactly that, an illness. Just as when your body is sick it doesn't behave normally, being mentally sick means you're not processing things in the normal way.

    I'm glad you and Anakin are both in happier places now :)
     
  11. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Listen, we're all mentally ill in one way or another.
    I've never been suicidal, but there's been times when I didn't care so much about being alive.
     
  12. Beldaran

    Beldaran Guest

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    it's interesting to read everyone's story...i never really thought about it that way..but i think that's because i can't wholly understand what some of you are going through...i do hope and am glad to see that you're all doing well now :).
    i've never been suicidal as well, never felt really depressed either. well, i've been through some really horrible stuff when i was younger, but my 'survival instinct' seems to work very well, perhaps a bit too well. it seems my subconscience puts away negative feelings so well, i've thought for years i was doing well, when i clearly was not. had 1 year of being very unsteady...but never felt like hurting myself, the world and life is just too precious to me for that. sometimes i even panic at the idea of not having enough time in my short humble life to do all the things i would like to do and see in this wonderful world..
     
  13. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    I salute you with respect.

    we had a class last semester on psychological diseases, with all background infos, symptoms, personal stories, statistics and stuff, and well... as you surely know, being Bipolar is one of the more severe diseases. More than once I thought: "I wouldn't be able to handle that. No way. Nope. I'd be hammering that escape-button with my fists"
    So respect! For living with it, overcoming it and 'coming out on the other side' probably stronger, smarter and wiser than before. Wow! I'm not sure I would've managed to do so myself.


    Suicide...
    I'm not 100% sure, but suicide is generally called a "symptom" not a disease itself. At least it's a symptom of Depression and Borderline personality. And maybe of other diseases as well.
    I'm not sure that educating the society would help... and if someone is really determined to end his/her life (and seriously, with some of these diseases, I'd be the first one to jump) I don't think we have the right to stop them.
    Wow, that sounds bad.
    Okay, I know that statistically 90% of people who attempted to commit suicide are glad that they were stopped and thankful to be alive. But most of them attempt it again within 3 months or something around that.
    Taking that and all your experiences I think that of course, people should get help, should be stopped, should have people they can confide in to somehow manage to overcome their reasons to leave this life/ find reasons to stay --- but if someone tries to exit for 20 years and more (there have been these cases), I think it's time to let go and let him stop suffering. (There was a woman, trying to commit suicide for 30 years, always ending up in psychiatries and on drugs, until she booked a vacation in spain, went swimming into the sea and never came back).

    So yah. I've never been suicidal either, I fear death too much and when I was younger I always thought those teens are all just seeking attention and want to make others feel bad. But you know, that's easy to assume for someone who's never been in that position and I know that now.
    Special subject teens: The brain goes through a lot of changes when we transform into adults. It messes us up bad, so suicide should never be okay with teenagers. If they still want to leave say ten years later, okay, but I'm of the opinion that a teenager is controlled by hormons and social media and peer pressure - and all that will go away, so it will get better and there will be reasons to live. => No suicide for teenagers (as if I could somehow influence that...)
    It actually is statistically relevant that if you have a mental disease and survive your teens, the probability of suicide gets lower.
     
  14. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I think education is a very key and important part of things. It's a very powerful tool and making people more aware is generally a very good thing. It's this increased awareness that allows us as a society to start taking notice and paying proper attention toward things such as depression and suicide and from there we can start to take steps to treat it. Furthermore it also means that people who suffer from these conditions are less likely to be outcasts; at a very base level things that we don't understand and which are "different from the normal" are often things we fear/hate/drive away. As such increasing the awareness and understanding; even at a very simple level, really helps to improve acceptance.

    Consider how today we accept many more mentally disabled people operating within society, where as in the past we often just locked them up in a zoo like environment (complete with visiting tourists).


    I think this is more a reflection that helping people with such extreme problems that drive them toward suicide is a longer term form of treatment that can take its time. Also because of the wide variety of possible causes (from everything such as living environment; relationships; social stress; diet; sunlight etc...) and contributing factors its also not a simple "take this pill twice a day" type of affair.
     
  15. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    I think this is a very valid point and not just from the perspective of people who don't suffer from depression. I think there are lots of people who don't realize they suffer from these conditions or have any idea what they can insidiously do to a person who doesn't know that they have them.
     
  16. anonymous

    anonymous the king

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    I have never been suicidal my self, but some of my friend have tried to commit one - for the most foolish reason there is love. But I am glad I have heard all your stories. and I want for you all to know, that I love you all :D, and if something bad happens you can always , and I really mean always count on me - as stupid and funny as it may sound.

    As for me, I guess I have had it easy , ofcourse when my first love broke my naive hearth, I have thought of hurting myself etc ( yea at age of 15 - lol), but now, as I have grow older I look back at laugh at my self. and the best thing I have learned, that even a bad experience is an experience - and what ever happens, what ever has happened and what ever will happen you have to fight, and you have to make your self happy.
    I may sound selfish now, but I do live for my self, I live to make myself happy - but sometimes it requires to make other happy as well.

    I had never thought that this disscusion will move my hearth.

    Thank you all, for helping me understand you a little bit more.
     
  17. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    Awww... this is quite possibly the most awesome reply I have ever read in debates. :) <3
     
  18. Beldaran

    Beldaran Guest

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    lol anon melts the ladies' hearts :D
     
  19. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    You know, I think this is the best argument there is.

    A few years back, I had a discussion with the front man of the Dutch society for voluntary life termination (they are the radical splinter group of the local pro-euthanasia foundation). The man told at a presentation that the ultimate liberty is suicide (for want for a better word - it is a word he hated). He argued that a negative view towards suicide is rather modern and could only traced back to the firm grip Christianity has or had on our society.

    I argued that the relationship between present self and future self is more loosely than it might seem at face value, and that voluntary termination of life (as he preferred) would constitute potential murder to your future self. He got mad and dismissed my point without arguing. I think that means I won :)

    What I mean to say is that most people who have had a go at suicide or thought about it, will say, when asked years later, that, yes, they are quite happy never to have succeeded. Life might seem bad and without hope at some point or other. But I can tell you this: it will get different. Different and interesting enough to find out what life has got in store for you. Keep that in mind.




    There's one interesting statistic I learned back when I was in university. Apparently, only 1 in 10.000 people with suicidal thoughts will actually die from suicide. There's two lessens you might take away from this
    1. You're not alone.
    2. You will probably get over it.

    That is all :)
     
  20. Taliesyn

    Taliesyn It's a feral reality out there, kids.

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    Thanks, anon. You rock. :)