Starwars - Fantasy or Sci-Fi? Round 2

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Overread, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Explain to me then why its ok for Darth Vader to be half machine or half unnatural armour - whilst its not ok for the Terminator to be an artificial life form other than a machine?

    The way you are going you are just stripping away the world set entirly and going back to the story - at which point we return to the fact that Fantasy isn't just about the story but about a story and world set link. If it was just about story then you could say anything fictional is a fantasy story
     
  2. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Because the fact that the Death Star or Vader's armor is made of machinery is only a detail and could be changed without changing the story. But the point of Terminator was about cyborgs. That is the point. Stripping that away would defeat the purpose of the story. It was cameron's idea to create a story of a unvincible cyborg sent back through time to kill the mother of the leader of the resistance. That's what it basically is about. It was Lucas' idea to re-tell the idea of a captured princess in a fortress type of fairytale in a modern setting. Change the setting would not change the basic idea however he had in mind, unlike Terminator
     
  3. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Ahh so the concept of sci-fi or fantasy isn't in the story or the setting but in the mindset of the author at the time of writing?
     
  4. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    It comes down to what the basic idea of the story is, that's why I said what Cameron's basic idea is, which comes down to a story based on actual science, thus sci-fi, while the basic idea of SW is that of a a modern fairytale.
     
  5. 3rdProphecy

    3rdProphecy New Member

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    i think it is both, it is fantasy in a sci-fi setting.
    if you look at the basic elements, knights with swords fighting with a princess against a evil dark wizard wielding the magic of the force.

    Besides, have you looked at some of those locations, straight out of the best fantasy books.

    And you also have some pretty good fantasy writers are star wars authers, Terry Brooks, R A Salvatore ....
     
  6. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    A story is not defined by it's genre.

    A story's genre can be defined by the setting, ESPECIALLY when it comes to Fantasy and Sci-Fi. Hell, that's all there is to cyberpunk and steampunk.

    And there are no monsters in star wars, only aliens.






    P.S.: I LOVE this debate.
     
  7. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I disagree that there are no monsters in SW. You just have to look at the meaning of monster. Just because they are newly invented doesn't mean they are not monsters. You have the dianoga, the space slug, the rancor, the reek, the nexu, the acklay and more.... In other words plenty enough monsters....

    And by your logic you could argue that the genre of SW is still sci-fi, but that the story is fantasy. Doesn't make much sense to me, but okay...
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  8. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Yes but at the end of the day its a nice fairy tail - in SPACE!
    Hence it goes in the Sci-fi category darn it. You can't fit it into Fantasy because it would be all on its own - amidst dragons, monsters, mages and all the rest you have this oddball of Star Wars (heck the name is darn Sci-fi in itself).

    You still seem to be clinging to this desire for Star Wars to be fantasy just because the story - when stripped of context and world set is loosely similar to that of a typical fantasy story. However if we start doing that a heck of a lot of various genre are suddenly going to fit under the old Classics section because they have a story that is - for better or worse - loosely based on Romeo and Juliet.
     
  9. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Please don't start with this again.......... :(
     
  10. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Lol Foin, if you don't like it, don't get involved. And Overread, we're talking about sci-fi. fiction based on science... How is sound in space science. Laser sword which don't extend like a laser would. Although I'm sure the EU has an explanation for that. You to me seem too focused on the fact that fantasy should be set in a medieval or older setting, otherwise it does not classify as 'fantasy'. I just don't agree with that.
     
  11. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I never said that fantasy had to have a specific age setting - but I do think that once you go futuristic it stops being fantasy and becomes sci-fi. Just like if you take a fantasy story and throw in a lot of steam you end up with Steam Punk and not Fantasy.

    Granted there are those that try to sit across the line - Pern is a bit of a mess in trying to nail down for example - but Star Wars is nice and simple! Also sci-fi doesn't have to have real science just like fantasy does not have to have real medieval stuffs.
     
  12. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    But that's what the term sci-fi stands for otherwise how can you truly call it sci-fi? It's a story that is based on real science with added fiction. The Terminator is about cyborgs, a robot more advanced as we know it. Star Trek is about space travel, once again far more advanced as we know it. Star War mainly is about how a good person can become evil in a setting of several cultures, in a setting of war.
     
  13. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I can't help but feel that your break down of Terminator and Star Trek is not the same method as you are using for your break down of Star Wars. Its not just in a setting of several cultures in war its in a setting of an interplanetary empire in the grips of war followed by rebellion and revolution. You can't just cut out the interplanetary aspects
     
  14. Reece56364

    Reece56364 Guest

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    You should re-name this: Debate between Anakin and OverRead
     
  15. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I do dissect it, but that's because the Empire seen in Star Wars... It is of no importance to the story that this is an intergalactic Empire, but just an Empire as the Roman Empire. But what matters in Terminator is that it is about the future, armageddon. The change of time, timetravel, which is known as a sci-fi concept mainly, though there has been time-travel in fantasy too no doubt. But with Terminator you are dealing with Artificial intelligence. What matters is that it is about technology as the general theme is humanity versus technology. And in this case it has to be advanced technology. In Star Trek it has to be advanced... How else can you travel through space without it. But the travelling through space in Star Wars is only a detail, and not relevant to the story.
     
  16. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    I fail to see how you can say that Space travel in star wars is not a part of the story and yet it is a key part of star trek. I've already pointed out that you can change Star Trek into regular ships and island exploration without losing the essential story in a similar way to which you are removing the space from Star Wars. You just seem to be hooked on this idea that Star Wars does not need space to be Star Wars - however you've already proved that if you take the space away you get a different story (ie the one it was based on).


    Also terminator - the original - isn't really about the struggle against machines, but more of an embodiment of the nightmare of being chased by something that can't be normally stopped. The fact that its a machine is not critical to the film - you can have a super human - alien - monster - a swelling darkness etc..... each of which presents the threat of being chased by the monster.
     
  17. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    But again that is not what the story originates from. Star Trek basically comes down about adventures during a trek in space. Yes you could dissect it and put in in another setting, but that would destroy the whole basic idea. Terminator is about timetravel from the future. Why is it in the future. Becuase the future is unknown, so in a realistic setting, it's not impossible to create a possible war that has not occurred yet. And with the first Star Wars its the rescue of a princess from an evil empire. I think I've repeatedly said this. How you dissect a story would destroy the point of the story... I don't do the same.
     
  18. Kelmourne

    Kelmourne The Savage Hippy

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    For the record, the force is just midichlorians in our blood stream, not magic. As much as everyone tries to forget, the new movies are still cannon.

    And lightsabers are plasma swords encased in a magnetic field that extends from the handle at a slow rate, hence that whole thing. I repeat, lightsabers are not laser swords. They are plasma swords. This is actually possible by todays technology. I feel I should stress the word technology.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  19. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Actually midi-chlorians are not the Force. The Force is still magic on its own. The midi-chlorians just determine how well connected you are with the Force, in other words, how strong you are in magic. And you explanation of the lightsaber comes from EU. It has not been said in the films. Anakin referred to lightsabers once as laser swords and Lucas often rerfers to them as laser swords. He also said the EU is a different wolrd to that he created, a different canon than the movies.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  20. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    No I mean...why don't we all just give it a rest and accept Star Wars for what it is: Awesome.