Star Wars Episode 7 movie talk

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by Mububban, Aug 16, 2014.

  1. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Well the original idea was different. It spoke of them having fallen out. That could still be true. I'm not sure yet.
     
  2. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    It wasn't about selling action figures. The ending was just too depressing. Lucas wanted some kind of loss. There's actually a hint of that. Solo when sitting the Imperial Shuttle says about the Millennium Falcon "Just have a funny feeling I'll never see her again." and that meant that either Han or Lando were going to die. He tested it for both characters. Even Luke was going to die, cause in one draft he wrote that the Death Star was orbiting around the Imperial Capital (then not named Coruscant yet) and he would have killed Vader and turned to evil. But then a moment of self-sacrifice comes where he blows up the Imperial Capital and the explosion takes out the Death Star with it.
     
  3. Kele

    Kele New Member

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    I am mostly a casual Star Wars fan these days. The prequels killed my enthusiasm for it--worst time I have had in a movie theater was TPM and AOTC. Didnt bother with the third one.

    The trailers haven't really impressed me as a result. If this had been done in 1999 it likely would have, but not now. Harrison Ford is several years older than Alec Guinness was in Star Wars. I dont see Han Solo as very interesting when elderly. Luke yes, not Han.

    I hope that speculation on Luke's whereabouts is wrong. It would tarnish the character to suggest he was so weak (he was already weakened in ROTJ but not so much). Not unless it turns out he is actually being held by his choice for some greater aim.
    Especially since that Darth Vader wannabe is no Darth Vader. That voice.
    Get Willem Defoe, Lance Henricksen, Idris Elba--anybody but that.

    Also surprised to see so much with tie fighters and x wing fighters flying about near the ground as opposed to space.


    I tend to be in the camp these days that sees Star Wars 77 as a separate entity-and the films that followed were something not entirely connected. They could have gone in a million directions after SW--pirates, spaghetti western influences..but after ESB and Lucas' change in direction--Darth Vader went from being an interesting nemesis into a mind slave.

    I liked Gary Kurtz's suggestion as originally planned (or so he says) that Luke would have been spending the next three films cleaning up the Empire in the galaxy and looking for the "other." But oh well, you take what you can get. Hard to imagine these films being worse than the prequels even though I dont like Abrams' films I have seen.
     
  4. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    I will bet my left nut that they will be light years ahead of the prequels on every level possible. I don't think Abrams is god, but I think his movies are solid. I think he was a good choice for such a big movie kickstarting a new trilogy.
     
  5. Kele

    Kele New Member

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    The bar is set very low after the prequels. In fact so low that Jar Jar could step over it without tripping and saying "exsqueeze me."
    I dont expect much from Abrams or Disney, but then I dont consider the original films perfect either. I would hope this is fun and not somber. The most important person right now is John Williams and if his music is going to be in the same vein as the originals, or less distinctive in melody like his Crystal Skull music. I would hope he recycles the old themes a lot-but he didnt do that with either the prequels or Indiana Jones 4....
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2015
  6. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

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    This time the world has a massive advantage - no George Lucas behind the camera, or in the writing room
     
  7. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    John Williams will use the old themes, but also use some themes from the prequels as well as use new ones. I'm really the opposite of you two. I'm in the camp that has me worried Lucas isn't involved, though there has been an interview that implied differently. It said that his story treatment is being used with some changes to it. But I did hear that Disney ditched his story treatment as well, so which of the two is it? A few things they kept, like the Empire being a remnant of its older self, now known as the First Order and as he said he was going to replace Palpatine with someone else. That does appear the same. A female protagonist as the lead aka Rey. And who knows what else they kept. I don't care if Lucas is only a consultant, but have him on board. He is very familiar with mythological themes strong in both the OT and PT. And who knows, now they're likely missing from the ST, which will be disappointing. Yeah, feed the crowd with nostalgia and it will be a success. Let them know that unlike the PT we'll be using mostly practical effects (which is BS, PT used a lot of practical effects and this movie still uses a lot of CGI). So remove Lucas' name from everything related to Star Wars so fans don't give in to their hate for him.
     
  8. Kele

    Kele New Member

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    As long as the score keeps the "oomph" of the SW and ESB scores and doesn't feel like his more modern works. I dont hate Lucas--though I think his stubborn attitude hurt efforts to make an Indiana Jones film at an earlier date and it is absurd he wouldnt allow the original versions of the films to be sold in pristine quality.
    I can tell the "practical effects" pitch is BS by the fact that in the last trailer they are using handheld camera moves for the chase through the wreckage scenes. It is a very modern willy nilly kind of unnecessary addition.
     
  9. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I'm sure Williams will make the score fit. I mean no one can deny that Williams made an epic score for the prequels, whether you like them or not. I've heard many haters say that the music is the only good thing that came out of them. Concerning Indy, think a lot of ideas were abandoned and they were just as weird. You can tell by the title itself: Indiana Jones and the Monkey King, which was about Shangri-La, the golden city. Indiana Jones and the Saucer men. Indiana Jones and the Cradle of Life which a certain film stole. He did combine ideas like the first two. These were all ideas he came up with in the 80's. And I understand why he doesn't release the original version of the Original Trilogy. It's because they are not canon. I think he already was bothered to release them on dvd. If Da Vinci said today that the Mona Lisa was unfinished, I wouldn't stand in his way. Same applies to Lucas. As George R.R Martin said: "Art is not a democracy."

    Many also don't know that the version they want remastered is not the one that's the theatrical version. Many consider the true original trilogy to be the longest one on VHS. They don't seem to realize that this version also underwent a couple of changes. Beru's voice changed, the medical frigate and others. But because they consider this version to be sacred, they'll just say that these changes were for the better.

    Actually I was just told that Summer Phoenix (River Phoenix's sister) and Casey Affleck had a baby boy who they named Indiana. Nice reference to her late brother, who played the young Indiana Jones in the Last Crusade.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  10. Kele

    Kele New Member

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    I dont subscribe to the auteur theory. Lucas is not a painter unless the people who worked under him from McQuarrie to Williams to Ben Burtt were mere brushes. We saw what happened when the other ingredients were missing--including Gary Kurtz--one of those old time producers who contributed creatively to films.
    If he was a a perfectionist it would be one thing-but Lucas isnt a perfectionist. Far from it.
    He didnt release versions of the Original Trilogy that could be played on a big tv-fortunately some others found a way to recreate it in higher resolution and it looks really good so I am satisfied.
    One thing I do admire with Lucas is that he has a "do what you want" attitude towards the films. He tolerated fan films much more than I would have expected.

    Williams' music for the prequels was the best thing about it but the leitmotif design was much more limited than in the scores he did from 75-83. His music style changed. Darker, more languid. Star Wars had a distinctive Korngold meets Mahler king of sound.
    If he recycles all the oomph stuff then alright--but will he do that? He didnt with the prequels. Still, I would rather have him doing it than anyone else.

    One thing that Lucas said about Indiana Jones which I agree with is that there wasnt a treasure quest as exciting as the Ark.
    After the first three films, the pattern should have been either Islamic or Buddhist. There is a rather exciting Ark-like treasure in Islamic mythology and stories-I used it in a book years ago.
    But its very hard to follow up the Ark and the Holy Grail. I wouldnt say inter-dimensional aliens was the most appealing alternative--but I didnt like the other script ideas floating around either.
    Unlike Doc Savage or some other adventurer, Indiana Jones just didnt have the shelf life-especially cinematically.
    And if one watches Secret of the Incas, the character of Harry Steel IS Indiana Jones minus the whip. Raiders is a quasi remake of it.

    Anyway not long to wait on the new film. I'll be looking at non spoiler reviews before I consider seeing it.
     
  11. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Personally I think it's best to leave Indiana Jones alone. I like the Crystal Skull, but I would have preferred if it had stayed a trilogy. Now there will be fifth one, and it's possibly the last time Lucas will write the story for it.

    Concerning the music I think that Williams's style improved. He had become more experienced and I find the prequel trilogy when it comes to music a great improvement over the music of the original trilogy. They're a lot more sophisticated, while some of the memorable, especially the Imperial March sounds more simplistic, though nobody can deny that it works. I'm afraid that the music will be more like the prequels, though there will be a lot more themes of the OT as the sequel trilogy relates more to the OT compared to the prequels which only had a few themes of the OT, like the Imperial March, Princess Leia's theme, which were imo improved in the PT.

    There are a lot of people who contributed to Star Wars, but Lucas is still its creator. If someone wants to change something about their contribution, then imo it should be with Lucas' approval. It's his vision and every contribution was added to make his vision come true. The Mona Lisa is Da Vinci's vision. Both are artists, so if they want to change it, that's their right. A lot of artists aren't perfectionists and whether they are is subjective. Sam Witwer actually said a lot of interesting things about how you should watch The Star Wars trilogy, mainly for children however. Let them first watch the Clone Wars series. Let these character grow on them, like Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padmé. Then go to Episode IV where they learn Anakin is killed by Darth Vader. When they get to Episode V they'll learn Anakin IS Vader. Then cut to the prequels to show what happened and finish with Episode VI.

    I think this is the best solution for children. It's very similar to the scissor way, where you watch A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back and then cut to the prequels and end with Episode VI. But I think this is one of the problems with the prequels. Since you know what happens to Anakin, Padmé and Obi-Wan they don't grow on you like other characters in the OT for example. They compared it once to the Titanic Sinking, but it's not a good comparison. Because at least in the film of Titanic you didn't know anything of the characters and the story, which made it at least more interesting.
     
  12. FaerieKim

    FaerieKim New Member

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    A lot of people think the third one is the best of the prequels. But I share your dislike of the prequels. I hate phantom menace. Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith are better. They are ok. But they are definitely annoying in places.

    My suggestions for improving the prequels:
    There should've been less CGI, more of that lived-in kind of feel that the original trilogy had. Anakin should have been more heroic and less annoying and whiny. Then his change to Darth Vader would've been like the tragedy I always imagined it to be. Like if Luke had succumbed to the dark side. Instead it's kind of meh - because we've seen it coming all along. And Boba Fett should've remained an enigma. If enigma is part of his appeal, as I believe it is then you shouldn't be doing a back story with his father etc. Maybe a back story of how he became a bounty hunter or something. Something that still maintains that aura of "cool" and mystery that he has. And Jar Jar Binks should never have happened at all.

    What? You don't like ESB? I think it is the only star wars film that is entirely perfect. Though I like the entire original trilogy, I believe Empire was the best one of all.

    I'm cautiously optimistic about the new films. There's a chance that some of the darkness, wonder, mystery and emotional depth of the original trilogy may be returning. I hope so. But I also don't want to get my hopes up too far.

    I still wish the prequels had been different:(
     
  13. FaerieKim

    FaerieKim New Member

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    NOOOOOOOOO!!!:eek:
     
  14. FaerieKim

    FaerieKim New Member

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    I'm relieved about that. I kept thinking why do they keep returning to Tatooine? It's supposed to be "if there's a bright centre to the Universe, it's the planet that is furthest from it". So why is it so central to events all the time?
     
  15. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I don't completely disagree with you, but there's a few things to consider. Anakin's heroics are mostly in the Clone Wars. I respect Lucas' choice to show Anakin from when he was a little boy to his change into Darth Vader. I don't really see him as whiny. If he was, then Luke would be considered whiny as well, though I don't see any complaints about him. At least not as many. With all respect, but I find the criticism about Anakin being whiny pretty ironic, because fans can come off as pretty whiny themselves, considering how much they whine about the simplest things like Greedo shooting first and such. It's a pity that we couldn't see more of the Clone Wars, thus Anakin more heroic, but there wasn't enough time to show them. Besides that wasn't really the main focus of the story. CGI is another thing. Lucas wanted to push the boundaries, hence why there is so much CGI, though there are a lot of practical effects. More than fans seem to realize imo. Obviously CGI has improved a lot, but would it have been improved as much if Lucas hadn't pushed those boundaries? I don't disagree about Boba Fett. I don't really care to be honest. A lot of him is still a mystery, so showing him as a child doesn't really matter to me. What I don't like is the change of his voice in the later edition. I certainly preferred his old voice. It sounded more intimidating. I don't really care for Jar Jar either. He served his purpose aka entertain children. He made others laugh like friends of mine. To each their own, I say.

    Because Tatooine is the home of two of our central heroes. The two suns are symbolic of Luke and Leia alone. I don't see the purpose of creating other worlds like Jakku which looks identical to Tatooine. So what's the personal of creating an exact copy of Tatooine? We have a rebel base situated on some sort of planet that looks very similar to Yavin IV. Another ice planet with lots of trees. Basically Endor in winter. Personally I think Lucas was at least more imaginative in the worlds he created. Yes, he did it mostly with CGI and so what? At least it's something different.
     
  16. FaerieKim

    FaerieKim New Member

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    I just don't like the prequels. Wish they'd been different. It's not always easy to figure out exactly why, much less to justify it.

    Something about the whole Jango Fett thing I don't like. Not entirely sure why but it spoils Boba for me a bit. I can still enjoy Boba Fett in ESB but I definitely prefer to forget all about Attack of the Clones.

    Also there's something about Anakin I don't like - or something about his turning to the dark side that just doesn't seem like I'd imagined it would be.

    I don't know I think I spent so much of my youth wondering and imagining what episodes 1-3 would be like. And when they came I was disappointed. But I can't always explain why.

    Although it's not all bad. I quite like when Anakin goes hateful and violent on the sand people when his mum dies. I like Darth Maul and Count Dooku. The accidental head swapping of Threepio and the battle droid is hilarious. I also enjoyed Revenge of the Sith, although I don't remember all the details of it as well as the previous two for some reason.
     
  17. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    I think that's the main problem when it comes to fans and the prequels. Expectations. They went to theaters to see the film they wanted to see, not the film they were presented with. The hype and expectations were too high which left many fans disappointed. Many for example, as they put it, wanted Anakin to be more of a bad-ass. They wanted him to be more tough. But Lucas gave them a teenager who was very emotional. He thought love should play an important factor in his turn to the Dark Side. It was ironic to see him change from a slave to a respected Jedi Knight and then become a slave again. It was a sad irony that he had become a slave to the Dark Side. The problem here is that people just had a differnt view on what kind of a bad guy Darth Vader was, which is also why a lot of people think ROTJ is the worst of the OT, because like Revenge of the Sith it presented him more as a tragic figure rather than a tough villain, they wanted him to be.
     
  18. Kele

    Kele New Member

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    I dont dislike ESB. It is higher on my favorites list than Star Wars. But I am torn between SW and ESB. ESB is more dramatic, but the worlds it creates is different from SW, that is why I say SW is a separate entity. ROTJ--has problems--though the scene where Vader turns against the Emperor still produces an emotional reaction in me.

    No-my view is Williams was at his peak in the late 70s-early 80s. Unlike some composers, he had distinctive theme tracks for a movie by scene. Someone like Jerry Goldsmith might have had 2-3 distinct melodies on a film. On ESB, Williams had a half dozen distinctive ones at least. Mark my word, impressions of the new films will rest on how good the music is. A movie's impact is at least half sound. If it doesnt sound like the old films it wont be received like them.

    I cant compare a movie to a painting--Leonardo had assistants but I doubt the aided him when painting the Mona Lisa. Lucas was paid by a patron-20th Century Fox. The patron paid him to make a film for them-to show to an audience. As soon as that film went public it was no longer his private work.
    He can change it as much as he wants, but the contributions of certain people-Ralph McQuarrie especially, made Star Wars what it was (a unique visual experience thanks to the design work--though beyond the Vader and stormtroopers which I consider the most important designs--the tie fighters and x-wings are also the most "Star Warsy" since there had never been spaceships designs like that either. The changes Lucas made were almost entirely "willy nilly" like replacing the song in ROTJ.


    As for the prequels I dont think they should have existed at all. Star Wars started in the middle (in medias res) the standard way for an epic. As noted, if people watch them in order then the big surprise at the end of Empire Strikes Back no longer works (though it would be hard to keep it a secret from new viewers anyway).

    The prequels contributed nothing useful and becomes jarring since there is such a difference stylistically and with actors being replaced (like Alec Guinness).

    I did see Revenge of the Sith on cable-I think it became a real movie for about 1 minute near the end when Padme and Obi Wan are confronting Anakin. But that was an anomaly.

    In my view Lucas is at heart an experimental filmmaker with quirky ideas that worked when guided through the late studio system and thanks to smart recruitment by him (and Gary Kurtz) and luck.
     
  19. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Sorry, but it's almost as you are implying he changed the designs of ships that Ralph Mquarrie made. Every change was mostly done for the story. Greedo shooting first or now at the same time as Han was to point out that he wasn't a cold-blooded killer. He was a selfish, greedy smuggler. But this is the problem with the mentality of fans, cause him shooting first is what made him "Bad-ass". Han not shooting first changed his character, which is nonsense.

    Your opinion of Williams being at his peak in the 70's early 80's is your opinion. He's been a great composer throughout and still is. Memoirs of a Geisha is still one of my favourite soundtracks, just like Clone Encounters E.T ao.

    The Jedi Rock song, I'm also not completely satisfied about, cause it does come off as cartoony. However compared to the old song it's still an improvement as Sy Snootles puppet was terrible.

    The prequels were stylistic very different on purpose because it showed you the Republic at its peak. Lucas at least presented something new and fresh while it was still like the Star Wars I knew. I guess for others it wasn't, because they wanted more of the same, which is why the new film will be received better. They're getting what they asked for. The First Order (basically the Empire), Walkers, Tie Fighters, X-Wings. Stormtroopers. They're giving everyone a nostalgic feeling and it's usfeful to say Lucas is not involved, which imo is a shame, but since most of the fans hate him, it only makes the film better. The less Lucas is involved the better. More practical effects instead of CGI, great! (Which is BS, I already said that)

    Lucas should have been involved as a storyteller, let someone else like Larry Kasdan write the script and let someone else direct it. Perfect forumula, the same they used for Empire and Jedi.
     
  20. FaerieKim

    FaerieKim New Member

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    oh no, I love the end of ROTJ. All the stuff between Luke, Vader and the Emperor is highly dramatic and emotionally gripping. And I like the whole thing of there being a good guy in there somewhere and turning him back to the good side. Vader was a merciless villain - but he used to be good - and Luke saw (felt?) that there was still goodness buried deep inside Vader and so Vader was redeemed in the end. It works - and like a hero with a darkside, a villain with a good side buried deep inside him is an enriching experience for fiction. It sets up the heroes and villain thing that we all need and seek in fiction but also turns it on its head a bit and teaches the viewer that human nature is more complex than black and white, which is also good.

    That stuff at the end of ROTJ - all the stuff in the death star - is one of the best things about ROTJ in my opinion, with the Jabba's Palace scenes being the other best thing:D

    but I always pictured Anakin's fall to the dark side as similar to when Luke was tempted, just with the dark side winning. But Anakin in the prequels was different. Less of a tragic hero who gives into his hate, more an emotionally confused dupe being manipulated by Palpatine. Subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless
     
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