Speculations!

Discussion in 'Games' started by Liadan, Mar 25, 2006.

  1. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    WARNING: WILL INCLUDE SPOILERS TO AT LEAST SOS.


    Might be a bit confusing... post a speculation about anything, great or small. The next person states their opinion and posts their next speculation. Post evidence, too - we could discuss this stuff!

    If you're posting AFFC material, please provide spoiler warnings. Thanks! :)

    Are Jaqen H'ghar and Syrio Forel one and the same?
     
  2. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    I don't think so. There are just too many holes in the theory (http://www.towerofthehand.com/articles/a/0022/). If we used the kind of evidence presented here then really Syrio could be anyone. He might even be the Kindly Man.

    Spoilers from AFFC
    I'm going to post tonight with the question "Is the Hound dead?" and present all the evidence. The more I look at it the more it seems likely, but I'm holding onto that sliver of hope.
     
  3. K'shar

    K'shar Darth Pumpkin

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    No way. absolutely not. he and his bro got unfinished business. gonna be gloriously gore filled.
     
  4. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    ** SPOILERS FROM AFFC WILL BE IN THIS POST **





    Ok, the last time we saw the Hound he was in an Arya chapter in SoS. The next time we see anything at all related to him is in AFFC in a Brienne chapter. She and Ser Hyle Hunt have followed Septon Meribald to meet The Elder Brother near Saltpans. They walk through the stable when they get there. "Way down at the far end, well away from the other animals, a huge black stallion trumpeted." (pg 463) The brothers call him Driftwood but later we find out this is Stranger, Sandor Clegane's horse.
    Next, they're walking through the graveyard.
    "...Higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. "Be more watchful there," chided Brother Narbert. "Septon Meribald might have gotten a mouthful of dirt." The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear.
    "A novice," explained Nalbert." (pg 463)
    Later Brienne is in the dining hall when she observes the novices. "Most were boys near Podrick's age, or younger, but there were grown men as well, amongst them the big gravedigger they had encountered on the hill, who walked with the awkward lurching gait of one half-crippled." (pg 467)
    The former of these two is the quote that launched the theory. We assume the Hound died of his fever, in fact it's even confirmed in another conversation between Brienne and the Elder Brother:
    ""The man you hunt is dead."
    That was another shock. "How did he die?"
    "By the sword, as he had lived."
    "You know this for a certainty?"
    "I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place. That was a grievious error. Some other wayfarer found my marker and claimed it for himself. The man who raped and killed at Saltpans was not Sandor Clegane, though he may be as dangerous.""

    We all know Martin has a way of dancing around the truth. It's hard to dismiss the proclamation, "I buried him myself." That's not dancing around anything. He even speaks of covering Sandor's flesh. But when he says, "The man you hunt is dead." could it really mean that that the Hound is dead but Sandor lives? As in a rebirth? The only reason this strikes me as being so confusing is that a few sentences later he launches into a very spiritual retelling of the Sandor's life. Everyone knew of "The Hound", and some at court may even have know of the rivalry between him and his brother, but I can't imagine Sandor sitting down for lunch and spilling this (bear with me, this is going to be a long one):
    ""He served, but found no pride in service. He fought, but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine. He did not love, nor was he loved himself. It was hate that drove him. Though he committed many sins, he never sought forgiveness. Where other men dream of love, or wealth, or glory, this man Sandor Clegane dreamed of slaying his own brother, a sin so terrible it makes me shudder just to speak of it. Yet that was the bread that nourished him, the fuel that kept his fires burning. Ignoble as it was, the hope of seeing his brother's blood upon his blade was all this sad and angry creature lived for...and even that was taken from him when Prince Oberyn of Dorne stabbed Ser Gregor with a poisoned spear."
    "You sound as if you pity him," said Brienne.
    "I did. You would have pitied him as well, if you had seen him at the end. I came upon him by the Trident, drawn by his cries of pain. He begged me for the gift of mercy, but I am sword not to kill again. Instead, I bathed his fevered brow with river water, and gave him wine to drink and a poultice for this wound, but my efforts were too little and too late. The Hound died there, in my arms."" (pg 469)

    I can't decide what I believe. But, it seems to me that the Elder Brother is quick to say that "The Hound" is dead, but won't say "Sandor Clegane" is dead.

    ""It is true, then," she said dully. "Sandor Clegane is dead."
    "He is at rest." The Elder Brother paused." (pg 470)

    What do you guys think?
     
  5. K'shar

    K'shar Darth Pumpkin

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    Sandor lives. No doubt. just like R+L=J. I just don't see a way that he's not alive. Sandor was too major of a character to have a death thats not described. (I'd like to see this go to Gregor when we're done with Sandor)
     
  6. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    ** SPOILERS FROM AFFC WILL BE IN THIS POST **



    After finishing the reread, I don't know. "The Hound" has been Sandor Clegane, Rorge and is now Lem Lemoncloak. I just don't see Sandor coming back. Also, Thoros of Myr confirmed his death too. That and there really isn't a Gregor Clegane anymore for Sandor to slay even if that's all that was driving him. There's just some unknown super zombie robot Gregor courtesy of Qyburn. I'd say the chances are slim to none that the true Hound lives, but it is Martin's world - stranger suprises have happened.

    Next speculation question, also from AFFC: Who is the Alchemist? Remember how he supposedly kills Pate in the prologue? We see Pate again on the very last of AFFC in Samwell's chapter. I flipped back through the prologue and couldn't find a physcial description for Pate, but he's described in the latter as: "...the pale, soft youth...". This rules out the idea that the Alchemist killed Pate and took his place at the Citadel since their descriptions don't match. Also, Alleras and the other novices would have noticed. Unless, of course, the Alchemist can change his face as Jaqen could. This leads me to another question: What are Pate and Alleras doing sharing secrets with Archmaester Marwyn?

    Did I mention I can't wait for the next book?
     
  7. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    :halo: I can't either. :p

    Dunno about the second question, but after reading this, I'm starting to think that Syrio and Jaqen aren't the same people, even if there are some tantalizing hints in the Arya chapters. I do think that Syrio and the Kindly Man are one and the same, and that he knows Jaqen-Pate.

    So yes, I do believe that the alchemist took Pate's face. Don't have my copy of AFFC to post exact quotes, but the alchemist's physical description matches the last one of Jaqen H'ghar.

    Irrelevant but amusing :p: Do you think that Renly and Loras are gay lovers?
     
  8. K'shar

    K'shar Darth Pumpkin

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    oh yeah. fanny bandits the pair of em.
     
  9. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    Last edited: Mar 30, 2006
  10. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    Ooo, I just remembered! There's a line in AFFC by Arianne Martell: "One year King Robert's brother came to visit and she did her best to seduce him, but she was half a girl and Lord Renly seemed more bemused than inflamed by her overtures because he was gay." Ok, I added that last bit. But only because I figured Martin left it out on accident.

    Next question: Who killed Joffery Baratheon? I only asked this because I know LD is dying to give us her crackpot theory on Tyene. ;)
     
  11. Plish

    Plish Soul Sailing Psychonaut

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    Tyene? I always thought it was Littlefinger...But it might be interesting to hear her theory...Depends on how long it is ;)
     
  12. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    And here I was still thinking it was Olenna. I need to reread badly.
     
  13. Plish

    Plish Soul Sailing Psychonaut

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    At least you didn't forget who Olenna was :p
     
  14. K'shar

    K'shar Darth Pumpkin

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    i thought it was olenna too. i figured littlestinker was in on it as well tho.
     
  15. §oul Bane

    §oul Bane Active Member

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    Well I hope we find out who killed him, I want to give them a hand shake.
     
  16. Appaliq

    Appaliq No One

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    Who is it that lets Sansa in on it? Littlefinger right? He all but says "It was Olenna Tyrell." So even though I was the one who asked this question - why are we asking who killed Joffery? Don't we know?
     
  17. Plish

    Plish Soul Sailing Psychonaut

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    Since when does Littlefinger tell the truth?
     
  18. §oul Bane

    §oul Bane Active Member

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    Since when has anything someone says (exept the almightly Ned) In ASoIaF been the truth?
     
  19. Liadan

    Liadan Insert Title Here

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    Lol, so true.

    :p I just think that it's viable that the Dornish helped to kill Joff, which makes them even cooler. :p After all, the Dornish have a grudge against the Lannisters... anyway, I'm too lazy to go look it up, but I think I posted my theory, such as it was, somewhere in one of the reread threads. It was in "The Captain of Guards" reread week.

    Yeah... remember, he also claimed that he took Cat's maidenhead, but he took Lysa's...
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2006
  20. K'shar

    K'shar Darth Pumpkin

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    Does he actually lie or is he just completely delusional?? Maybe he thinks he's telling the truth? Nah he's just a lying bastard.