Someone must stop Germany...

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Anduil, Feb 13, 2012.

  1. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    This person from around the world definitely does not support you.

    Corrupt government and any sense of personal responsibility seem to be the national pastime in Greece!
    I say to Germany and to Germans... let Greece burn.

    Anduil, don't you wonder to yourself why it is that the Germans, even after losing two world wars and half their country to the communists for decades, still manage to have a modern world class economy?.. it's because there's an inherent strength in the people. It's been marshaled for good and evil, but you cannot deny that the Germans can get things done. Even my old man who dropped bombs on them during WWII had a begrudging respect for them.

    Some people have it, and some don't. The Greeks lost their mojo a long, long time ago.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2012
  2. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    1990 Greece gave loan to Germany. Germany never gave the money back. Secondly 1944 Athens occupied by Nazis all national gold was taken. Scandals of Siemens and submarines. GERMANY CAN GET THE THINGS DONE... come on Sparrow...

    take a look sparrow... next images is for you... ( An old stupid american that votes yes for iraq war, thought that 9/11 was terrorist action against your state and believes that Greece is in this condition cause greeks don't pay taxes. Wake up.)
    432013_324221007629960_322436297808431_992098_397166256_n.jpg 427028_323932804325447_322436297808431_991417_74723400_n.jpg 425727_324221994296528_322436297808431_992100_1196276647_n.jpg 408982_324167694301958_322436297808431_991966_60310694_n.jpg 408866_324221507629910_322436297808431_992099_67694886_n.jpg 398638_324169847635076_322436297808431_991970_1016544357_n.jpg 394081_323961870989207_322436297808431_991471_2048513582_n.jpg 395259_324225450962849_322436297808431_992106_1898230647_n.jpg
     
  3. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    And this photo because several people call us lazy... Noone can escape truth. 405380_221797861249975_100002592875518_432051_1890388447_n.jpg
     
  4. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Anduil however you cut it the Greeks are to blame. They've spent too much, avoided taxes, given themselves unsustainable levels of pensions/benefits and allowed their political/business elite to bury their noses in the trough. Whatever happens next the Greeks are going to have to take painful steps and deal with it. But I don't think Greece can even start doing so constrained as they are within the single currency and jumping to the EZ tune. The EZ don't care about the hardships that Greeks are suffering all they're interested in is getting their cash back & protecting the european dream even if that means Greece is the price. I can understand why many hold the view ~ your mess, we're not clearing it up, but driving Greece into the ground isn't going to help achieve that aim.

    As to your chart I would have thought that this is distorted by the numbers of part-time workers particularly women who have to work to get a second household income as prices are so expensive in UK. Normal full time work is definitely 35hrs+ and that ignores commuting.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2012
  5. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    But I'm not old, was against the invasion of Iraq, and 9/11 was a result of sloppy intelligence on our part.
    Wherever I'm at in life I take full and absolute responsibility for... it's part of being a man.

    I'm just going by the two Greeks here at TFF and saying, in my opinion, that you behave in a rather pathetic manner... you blame the Germans, the Turks, the EU, and whomever and whatever is convenient. You guys are finding out that there's a price to be paid for creating a welfare state that was never sustainable to begin with.
     
  6. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    I'm just getting off a 60 hour week... and just got a call from my manager who asked if I could come in tonight and tie up loose ends. I truly can't remember the last time I worked a 40hr week.
     
  7. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    First of all the EU puts all kinds of burdens on us and Turkey poses all kinds of threats to us.Second,the two main parties are responsible for the predicament of our country and I,personally haven't voted for any of them.And not just me,hundreds of thousands of other people who are paying the price of demagogy right now.
     
  8. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    Well to be fair, the prob with Greece would have gone a long way coming if there's anything to go by ppl like Sevi and you, Foin. Simply put, when we use the term either way we're damned on the political parties, I'm sometimes left wondering if it's the people who allow such idiots to run amok. Granted there's no choice in choosing, but if we're to see things from a longer end, would the demagogy be possible if the ppl have enough commonsense to slap the administration right across the head before things start to spiral down? The very fact that NO Greek politician wanted to be his own Ron Paul bodes ill for the country srsly. Somehow or another, I can identify this area with my country where thinking out of the norms has always been a case of 100% taboo. :(
     
  9. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    The problem is not the people of Greece. There is a system that is trying to erase my country. Evidence.

    1. Put us an unelected prime minister.
    2. Refused referendums.
    3. Refused elections.
    4. Trying to pass new measures without asking the people with the excuse that they gonna save us.

    I now ask all members of TFF that live in a "democratic" country will you like that happen to you when you and the rest of your countrymen pay your taxes while the politician spread and convince the whole community that Greeks didn't pay taxes all these years.

    I challenge you to give me evidence that Greek citizens didn't pay taxes.... You got details. Show us!

    The person that didn't pay the taxes is the rich that stole the country with their partners in Germany and the USA. Are the same persons that bought and sold usa defensive systems. The same persons that transfered all the money abroad to foreign banks.

    If you speak about greek folk and no tax paying i want evidence cause i don't buy it. As i don't buy that Greeks are lazy. I proved you wrong...
     
  10. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Anduil,

    I'm sure there's many millions of Greeks who pay their taxes, work hard etc but the issue of tax evasion is not something that's been invented. You yourself have acknowledged it although limit it to the rich, big business, doctors, the church and politicians in various previous posts. For those to get away with it, it requires 'ordinary' Greeks working in tax offices and society generally to be complicit, to turn a blind eye, accept a bribe and if they're doing that for 'the rich' they're doing it for others. Since you ask for evidence and have previously posted an OECD graphic as 'evidence' of the hardworking nature of Greeks, I'll give you a report from them which highlights some of issues confronting Greece, including tax evasion/collection:

    www.oecd.org/dataoecd/6/39/44785912.pdf

    (I had to lol at Greeks average pension entitlement ~ 93.6% of working salary. Uk came bottom of those listed at less than a third of that but Greeks population is aging demographically much faster.)

    On your other point about unelected PM, referendums and elections I agree totally. I think Greeks should down tools and go on an indefinite general strike until you do get an election with honest campaigns highlighting the scale of the mountain to be climbed, how the parties intend to tackle it in a credible way (& to match IMF/EZ expectations if election campaign is to remain in Euro) and their plans to turn the country around for better times in x years ahead. If the government does not have the mandate and support, however grudgingly, of the people they've not got a chance in hell of meeting any of the targets agreed with EZ/IMF.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  11. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    The taxxing system in 2008 before crisis had an amount of public employes. Now the new measures and the cut in public sector left no taxxing employes or a small amount of them that caused the problem that many taxxing organizations closed.

    You see their plan is almost perfect.
    1. Papandreou speaks of a country that never pays taxxes. Truth tells the opposite. (Rich don't pay they know every single name and do nothing cause they have profit from them.) 800.000.000.000 euros in Greek bank accounts in Swiss, they ask them now for greek folk.
    2.Turn the global community against greek folk, calling them pigs, lazies and many more adjectives. Truth says that Greeks work the most hours in west world.
    3.Gave two memorandums in greek parliament. Greek folk never get asked, they threatened all the members of the parliament to sign them otherwise default and exit of eurozone. (Fear the tool of power)
    4. Papandreou asked for referendum cause when he sees Greek people threaten his life wakes up and trying to find a solution. Germany refused referendumand erase Papandreou from primeminister and replace him with Papadimos an ex vice president of european bank. (Banks do everything to make the deal work.)
    5.Papadimos speaks of no new measures when he becomes primeminister. The biggest lie that a man told in this country. new measures came and cut the salaries again.
    6. Athens is burning in a message of some people to make the politicians to wake up AND to make Greek people scared in order not to go to roads to protest.
    7. of course noone will say a thing till they achieve to sell all national greek property.

    What this story is reminding. a yes

    USA 2001
    People died in USA
    and then
    the word terrorist was spread around the world. All global community suddenly believed that there was a global threat TERRORISM
    Greeks are lazy said the IMF. All global community suddlenly believe that they are lazy and don't pay the taxxes.

    Turn all global community against Greece in 2009 and set the Greeks responsible for global crisis. And uneducated people believe what they tell.

    American stupids voted yes for Iraq to fight the terrorism. American stupids think that greeks don't pay taxxes.

    I learned one thing for my life so far. That i want to fight for what i love. and i love what my country is. many lies said everyday throughout the world with only purpose of PROFIT.

    They don't care about you and me Elladan. They care for profit. Now Greeks are sacrifized. But this will not end by the economically death of Greece.
    You see in 2009 they turned to Greece cause it is a sunny good weathered tourist attraction estate. The value is really high. They knew that.
    I see no Light in other country. America for me is dark place full of injustice and uneducated people that watch Tv buy clothes and drink energy drinks.
    Germany is the head of Europe. Germany can stop them but they prefered to sell Greece to earn some money. There is still light in Uk and France. I was really happy when i see n Paris greek flags and messages against profit. And Nigel Farage that is a hero to greek people that from his position oppose many times the system they created.

    Sparrow you maybe laugh now but you where born human, you are not different than elladan or me. They don't care about human, they care about profits. They don't care to make people happy and spread love they care of profit. They turn us against each other to achieve their goals. They made you think of your family and house its gonna be ok your family. They made you think ing of your house. What will happen if they decide to take your house or hit your country...?

    They did it in 2001... people died without reason, just to make them go to war. to make profit.


     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  12. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I know this pic; I know Greeks are hard working people. Mostly on account of having to, I believe.

    For the Netherlands, it says 27 hrs. I want to express that The Netherlands has the highest female workforce participation in Europe. For obvious reasons, that leads to fewer hours per person as both parents work less hours in order to look after the kids. My point is that this diagram doesn't tell the entire story...

    41 hrs/week on average is massive though....
     
  13. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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  14. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Nigel Farage on Greek TV...


    The sooner Greece gets out of the EZ/EU the better. Hopefully UK will get out of the EU too sooner rather than later. I found the following chart showing how badly the UK economy has fared since joining the EU. Prior to 1974 (UK joined EU) the country used to run a small budget surplus but since joining only 7 out of the 38 years have been surpluses. Although there will be many other factors the EU hasn't done the UK any favours especially as we have a significant EU trade deficit too:

    http://www-958.ibm.com/software/dat...alizations/deficit-and-surplus-in-uk-year-by-
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  15. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    thank for posting Elladan. i hadn't seen that before, barely watch tv cause of work. And i prefer newspapers. I didn't expect anything else than Farage. He speaks without fear tells the truth about the failure of EU.
     
  16. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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  17. Firiath

    Firiath Halfling barbarian

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    Although I have to say the article definitely cleared some things up for me, let me just ask one thing: In what way is this relevant for this discussion? I see that now all stereotypes like those about Greeks being lazy are erased, but after all does it matter how much more Greeks work than others?
    Please correct me, but I'd say it doesn't matter how much people work (or how much money they earn) if the state does not control whether all the hard-working people actually pay their taxes, for example. I know we've had this discussion long ago, but when we talk about how hardworking someone is we should always keep in mind what the person does with the money that was earned. After all it's the state's crisis we're talking about.
    Like I said, please correct me if I'm wrong or forgetting important aspects.
     
  18. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    ^ Well it does at least partially dispel the notion that many (ordinary) Greeks are lazy and 'deserve' the abject poverty now being delivered onto them at the behest of the EZ, the main driver of which is undoubtably Germany. It does not, as you rightly highlight, address the issue of the avoidance and non collection of taxes or the failure of the Greek state in other areas. It does suggest that the picture often painted by politicians and other commentators shouldn't be relied on and their motives should be questioned.

    Let's pose another question...

    If most ordinary Greeks work hard, pay their taxes etc how would ordinary people in the EZ countries feel about more aid to fellow EZ citizens... would you support your country helping out with targeted help or are you happy to turn your back as you feel you have no obligation to other parts of the EZ, it isn't really your problem?


    PS Interesting to see Brazilian PM repeating today the line that developing nations like the BRICS countries (& all non-EZ G20 nations as far as I can see) won't be putting their hands in their pocket until they see a lot more from the EZ countries first.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2012
  19. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    This audio slideshow was pretty interesting, primarily for British tff members, and paints a picture of how bad things would be in the UK if we had to adopt Greek-level cuts. It's quite laughable that unions are squealing at the coalition governments 'modest' cuts, even threatening to disrupt the London olympics, when the alternative could be so much worse.

    If Britain was Greece

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17202274
     
  20. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I think this threads deserves a revisit.

    It appears that Syriza is going to "stop" Germany one way or another. Will Greece stay with the Euro? Or the EU? And what exactly will be the consequences of such a move?