Someone must stop Germany...

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Anduil, Feb 13, 2012.

  1. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    Yesterday the Greek parliament voted yes to the paper that Germany gave us... (Germans said about default if there was no vote)


    Some parts of the agreement for the new loan is :

    average salary of Greece will be 400 euros while it was 580 euros.
    Tickets in public transportation gonna have 20%


    The joke is that previous summer Germany told that there will be no more austerity measures for Greece..
    People from summer of 2011 are dying cause of poverty... And now new measures.
    Athens was burned again because Greek politicians and German politicians are liars...

    So i ask you what do you think will happen with the new mesuares?

    Next video for what the hell is going on in European parliament... This french speaks the truth...
    For me Greece can live without Europe we don't need the ****ing loan... We don't want a EU ruled by Germany, if we wanted that we had never fought the Hitler troops... And now new Germans want to obey... No sirs... that's enough. Cut our salaries take all the ****ing money... And go **** your selves. ( i m really angry with what the hell is happening.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  2. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

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    Surely the average salary calculation factors in enough income for a person to afford basic food and shelter in most areas - even if they have to pull their belt tight. I would have thought the starvation problem would be totally separate to the cap on the salaries (and if anything lowering the upper cap should free up more employer money to hire more staff - at least potentially.
     
  3. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    There is no way in which you will come to see the German perspective of things, is there? And yet clearly most Germans agree amongst themselves that they are the ones who have a reason to be really angry.

    There is absolutely nothing I - or anyone else - might be able to say to stop you from being infuriated. Or, worse, become even more angry. I don't feel there's a real discussion in this one. I respect both Greek and German members who, very likely, feel their politicians are failing. For very different reasons, no doubt. And who all feel they're of no consequence in the decision making.
     
  4. gumboot

    gumboot lorcutus.tolere

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    Anduil, have you seen this flow chart:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14977728

    It's pretty accurate. As you can see, if Greece doesn't get the bail-out money from the EU your economy is going to collapse. Your government won't have funds to pay for even the most basic services. Best-case scenario, it's limited to Greece. Worst-case scenario the situation will spread to other fragile EU states like Italy and Spain. If they're unable to make loans because of what happened with Greece, there is likely to be a run on their banks amidst fears they too will leave the EU. This will lead to a collapse of the EU banking sector and yet another global financial crisis.
     
  5. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I don't know about you guys but right now,today I know what I will vote in the next elections.Up until a few months ago I supported and voted for LA.O.S. right-wing party.However various moves and the party's president insisting to help or collaborate with the president of New Democracy had left me wondering if the party had lost its real values.Yesterday they kicked two very important members Voridis and Georgiadis from the party.Athens once again burned but burned worse than any other time the last few years.Well now,I know what to vote in the next elections.Someone who promises me to provide my country security,dignity,a better Greece.
     
  6. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    Well i do know what will happen if we don't take the new loan... Economy will collapse and those who have money on the banks will loose it. Also the country will not have a single hospital working. But trust me right now noone wants to lost the salary from 580 to 400... Trust me... They can't live with 580 euros why they can live with 400? GREEKS DON"T HAVE MONEY ON THE BANK TO LOOSE. And YES i don't give a ****ing shit about what will happen to Italy or Spain or rest EU. i care about my country.

    That question you made, you should have made it to those that are responsible fro this crisis. And this is Germany when created the scandals of siemens and submarines or when they loan my country with 5% more money than normal loans... : /

    I don't care about the rest. I want my country to bailout and reborn from ashes like did Greece 5000years now. i don't care about italian mafiozos or germans cancelors or spanish matadors...
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  7. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    So, basically, you want someone to give you free money with no strings attached? Why should they?
     
  8. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    Are you blind??? Did i say that i want any money? I said that i prefer default for my country than a new loan... please read carefully...
     
  9. LyannaWolfBlood

    LyannaWolfBlood Ella Dictadora

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    Sorry. This implied to me that you wanted a bailout, rather than you wanted to "bail out" of the EU.
     
  10. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    The paths were two...

    New loan or default.

    default = disaster for next 5 years we all know that

    new loan = from now on 400 average salary for next 40 years with the power of Germany to decide more austerity measures if they needed.


    So tell me why do i need the ****ing new loan??? i barely can handle myself with 580 euro that i take today.... : / why till i die i m gonna take 400 for 8 hours a day five days a week??? answer me...

    Gonna vote for default in one month in elections and i don't care about EU
     
  11. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    What's becoming more apparent daily is that Greece is in danger of going up in flames. Extremism and Nationalism is on the rise.

    Irrespective of where any of us feel blame for the situation lies if you grind a people into the dirt, deny them any control over their affairs, paint a picture of years of economic decline whilst they are trapped in a hopeless downward spiral then something's got to / will give. The Greeks are effectively disenfranchised as all major parties are jumping to the same tune. Meanwhile youth unemployment is at 48%, overall unemployment over 20% and climbing, economy is contracting, businesses failing and hard currencies withdrawn by the wealthy. There is zero chance that Greece will be able to implement all the cuts or increase their productivity and grow their economy out of the position it's in. Pretty much everyone knows it too but that doesn't change them demanding it whilst doing nothing themselves. I cringed when I heard the EZ-imposed, unelected Greek PM say 'rioting isn't democratic'. No-one condones rioting but if any country went through the same type of cuts their poplulace would be rioting too. London had a small taste of it last year.

    This bailout, just like the first, wont solve the problem, the 50-70% write off by commercial lenders won't either, nor will ECB cutting it's rate but not writing off any of it's debt. Greece will have to come back in xx months time for more help. The bailout is just buying time for europe's banks to re-capitalise and for Eurozone to stave off contagion (if they can). The Eurozone isn't digging deep to help out their southern neighbours the reality is the Eurozone has got it's wallet closed and it's cap out hoping the IMF will do most of the heavy lifting. That's quite a sick joke given the accusations levied at the UK, not a euro member, for not showing 'solidarity'. Unfortunately (for the EZ) no-one outside the Eurozone is interested in doing what the Eurozone block should be doing for itself, it has the resources but not political will. They can't even risk asking their electorates for a mandate for closer union just in case they get an answer they wont like! When Greece does finally default the rest of the Eurozone will ride the storm but ordinary Greeks will be wiped out financially. Meanwhile the problem will have moved onto.. probably Portugal.

    Greece should pull the plug now, hold all hard currencies within the Greek banking system and from tourism to fund critical humanitarian aid, sell licences for oil and gas development around Greece and kick start their economy with their own currency. It would be extremely difficult for years but at least it would be in their hands, the Euro isn't doing them any favours quite the reverse. The rest of the Eurozone could use the bailout monies to shore up their banking systems instead of pouring it down the drain.

    When the Euro was launched the eurocrats (& others) warned of the consequences of a politically-fudged monetary union and warned again when Germany & France broke the borrowing limits that it would enourage profligacy. The warnings were ignored and the chickens are now coming home to roost. On that charge it was the big powers who pulled the shots then and don't want to pay the bill now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
  12. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    Elladan a true son of Elrod the wise!

    This words are so true... so well said.

    Greeks want to decide for them. Situation is as you describe... Germany is not trying to solve the problem, they are just buying time for their banks... We don't want Germany to put austerity to us... If we fail we want to fail cause we made something wrong

    I know that my country will default soon. I know it. I m sure of it... Shits are everywhere... So i don't care if Italy sapin and rest EU will collapse...

    Indeed Germany accuses UK for this... cause Germany doesn't got the guts to face the problem...

    That's why the title is SOMEONE MUST STOP GERMANY....

     
  13. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    Can we try to not make this all Germany's fault? Because try as I might, it kinda puts me into a defensive position and then this wouldn't become a discussion, but a senseless fight.

    And trust me - we don't like giving you the money any more than you do, so it's not like we're actually enjoying the misery you're in.
     
  14. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    then dear lady stop the loans. Vote for it! Stop the loans! so simple! its the only way to help us! ( of course your politicians refuse that)
     
  15. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    Hey, I'm all for letting you guys go bankrupt and everyone taking anything of value out of greece and then let you guys rebuild your country from the ashes the economy left it in - but it seems like I haven't studied economy, or politics or anything that has to do with that stuff, so I am not quite sure about what this would really cause.
    Second of all: I get to vote for this city's mayor next month - but that's about all I get to vote about. And really, right now, I haven't heard of a party that's against giving you loans.
     
  16. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    i know :( all german parties want to loan Greece for only purpose to buy time in order to save your banks...

    Its like giving time to a man that is ready to die just to examine how you can avoid death... : /
     
  17. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    ^ I don't personally think Germans / others are enjoying Greece's misery although 'you reap what you sow' views probably prevail.

    What it comes down is do the people of Eurozone believe in potecting their currency union? The politicians screwed up when formulating the rules and ignored them when it was convenient but now the problems are here, a reality. So do Germans (others) feel that the solution is to all lift together or would they prefer that some suffer inescapable poverty so they themselves can build walls around their own wealth ~ the 'see no evil, hear no evil' approach?
     
  18. Forgotten Realms

    Forgotten Realms Human Version of Drizzt

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    Hope you do not misunderstand what I am going to say as I am not very good at debating, so it is just my opinion. It is not meant negative to any side. Germans are disappointed of their government as well as Greek people are. I am not into politics as it is always violent, so I just describe what people think (which is not directly what I think, that I will put at the end). Well, I can understand Greek people. They had good loan and good pension and surely good financial things I never heard of. But that changed, I do not know how. So, EU came together and deliberated what to do and how to help Greece. So, no-one really was able or willing to help Greece, as far as I know. A lot of EU countries are empovered like Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Greece .... some EU countries even have not got the Euro because they do not have the EU-economic standard like the Eastern countries Hungary, Bulgaria, etc. So best financial status to help the poorer EU-countries has France (but not quite as much as) Germany and the Scandinavian states. But Scandinavians are neutral, do not help. So support were left to Germany and France.
    German people are very angry as well, of course, because every worker is paying for supporting Greece. Some of them only have small wages. And most people see the German chancellor only talking but not really doing and that is the point.

    My own opinion is (you might like it or not) to leave Greece to its own autonomy. The Euro should be taken back and Greece should have Drachmen again. Then there should be a votum among Greek population if they would like to quit the EU or not and the decision should be taken according to the principle of majority.
    I think when Greece is responsible for itself they cannot blame any one else for their mischief. But if something goes wrong they have to carry it on their own. Perhaps riots would cool down when being independent. At later time there should be another votum, because after some time things are seen differently.... just to give Greece the chance to see how they will stand on their own and if they are doing well, but with an open door when their should be the wish to return or ask for help.
     
  19. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    I could agree with that.
    But the thing these thoughts apparently don't cover, is that, if we don't "help" greece, will Italy and spain etc go down as well?
    I'd love to say: okay, you don't get any more money, in fact, give it all back, give back what we gave to you and see what you're left with etc blablabla - but even though that would be the easiest way to go, it might not be the right way to go. For none of the Euro countries.

    Fact is, we've never had this situation before and everyone is afraid of the consequences if we break the "status quo" of the Euro zone.
     
  20. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    indeed. this is what Germany afraids a lot.. But two year now Greece is paying with austerity measures all the time... Salaries cut off people are dying cities are burning cause Germany doesn't decide...

    Well if Germany can't decide... Let Greece decide for her future... People can't accept the lowest salaries that history can prove in Eurozone for another 40 years....