So it was all Snape's fault?

Discussion in 'Harry Potter' started by zmunkz, Nov 22, 2015.

  1. zmunkz

    zmunkz Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2015
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    I was just thinking about the plot a bit, and it seems to me everything is Snape's fault. Obviously he is the one that brought the overhead prophecy to Voldy, but I mean more than that.

    When someone dies trying to save someone else, it is not enough to trigger the protection that Harry enjoyed for most of his life. The books are specific about that. The reason Lily was able to protect Harry is because Voldemort gave her a choice. If she had stepped aside, he would have killed Harry and left. This is why when James threw himself in front of the Dark Lord, also unarmed, and was killed, it did not protect his family. The Dark Lord didn't give him a choice in the matter, he had every intention of killing him one way or the other.

    Lily on the other hand was given the specific choice to stand aside (you silly girl!), and instead she kept herself firmly between them and ultimately led to a self sacrifice, and this is what imbues Harry with the protection that "killed" the Dark Lord right afterwards, and led to the creation of the unintentional Horcrux.

    We see this again in book 7. Lots of people die fighting or defending others, some unarmed, but it never creates this magical protection of others. That only happens when the character is given a choice to be safe in a specific context, yet they choose to sacrifice themselves instead. It happens in the end of the last book. Voldemort basically gives Harry a 1 hour free pass, saying he will not hunt him or hurt him for an hour, and he can choose to stay away, or he can choose to present himself in the forest. Harry makes the choice of self sacrifice (had he waited the hour to be up, or shown up in the forest to fight, neither would have led to protecting his friends).

    Ok. So hopefully we are agreed what goes into the protective magic. Back to Snape. He is the one that requested the Dark Lord spare Lily that night.

    1. It is because of him that Voldemort goes after Harry in the first place.
    2. It is because of him that Voldemort offers Lily the chance to live, and ultimately enables her to protect Harry
    3. It is because of him that an inadvertent Horcrux gets created in Harry

    So basically Snape started everything, not just the events that lead to the death of Harry's parents, but ultimately the events that lead to Voldemort's death too. It is all his fault.

    Ok, glad I got that off my chest.
     
  2. Overread

    Overread Wolfing it up! Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    7,161
    Likes Received:
    359
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +646 / 3 / -1
    One can argue that the fault is Dumbledors for bringing Voldamort to the world of magic in the first place. Or that the fault lies with a system which not only protects and promotes, but also educates those who practice the dark-arts and who are proven to often turn to "evil" or "selfish" goals (Sliterine House).
     
  3. zmunkz

    zmunkz Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2015
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    True, I suppose defining the real proximal cause is a little tricky. I just found it interesting that Snape not only sent Voldy after Harry, but at the very same time, enabled Harry to survive that same encounter.
     
  4. Pinkduckie

    Pinkduckie Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2015
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +9 / 0 / -0
    Correct me if I'm wrong but first your saying Lily sacrificed herself, which imbues Harry with that protection. (Lily gets killed, and Harry the person she was protecting cannot be harmed)
    Next, you say Harry sacrifices himself and survives because he chose to sacrifice himself? I'd say if what you think happened really happened in the book, Harry should be dead and everyone in Hogwarts castle should be protected from Voldemort. Instead Harry didn't die without anyone else sacrificing him or herself for Harry.
     
  5. zmunkz

    zmunkz Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2015
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    Not quite... he didn't sacrifice himself to save himself, he sacrificed himself to save his friends, or so he explains in the book.

    Voldemort had promised him an hour to bury the dead, he called back his troops, and gave Harry the choice to present himself in the forest. If Harry chose not to, then after the hour battle would recommence and Voldy would kill every man woman and child that stood in his way. So basically, by choosing to go there himself during that hour, he was trying to end the fighting and save everyone else.

    So I'm saying in that specific time and place (the 1 hour allotment), he was given a choice... he was perfectly safe from Voldemort during that short promised time, and he could have chosen not to go to the forest. Instead, he did present himself so as to protect his friends, and thus when he was killed, the same power of the sacrifice protected the castle and people within.

    The reason he didn't die himself goes back to book 4 when Voldemort used his blood to take on a body.
     
  6. Pinkduckie

    Pinkduckie Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2015
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +9 / 0 / -0
    And where in the book did you read everyone within was protected? Because I can't remember reading that during the second battle not a single hogwarts student, teacher or friend was harmed.
     
  7. zmunkz

    zmunkz Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2015
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    They were protected from Voldemort specifically not all the death eaters, at least to some extent. JKR doesn't explain if the protection is somehow diluted as a result of how many people were covered, so we have to guess. I agree that she isn't 100% consistent with how this plays out.

    But she does put in a few things, which is where I am getting this from. First, when they emerge from the forest with Harry's 'dead' body, we see more than once that Voldemort's silencing spells are not working on the students (and it is explicitly commented upon in inner dialogue). Then in the final monologue as Harry and Voldemort circle, he summarizes most of the things I've said above about how he can't hurt them. You'll find all of this coming from those last scenes in book 7.
     
  8. Pinkduckie

    Pinkduckie Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2015
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +9 / 0 / -0
    I forgot about those silencing spells, I totally missed that :p.

    As to whether it was all Snape's fault,... I believe there are a lot of people to blame, if you can blame anyone at all. You can't just punish someone because you think he might become a 'dark wizard' and by the time he is, it's already too late.

    Is it Snape's fault Voldemort went after Harry? Yeah probably.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Lady Galeth

    Lady Galeth Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2006
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Australia
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0
    Voldemort could just have easily gone after Neville if Snape had heard the whole 'prophecy' because it could have been either boy.
     
  10. zmunkz

    zmunkz Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2015
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    True, but if he had, Neville's mother would not have been given a choice to save her son (Lily only received the choice thanks to Snape), which means when he killed Neville, it would have worked and the rest of the prophecy would never have come true.
     
  11. kippersays_hi

    kippersays_hi New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2016
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    London, UK.
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    You know I didn't think of that. Yes Snape had a lot in allowing Voldemort to hurt Harry. But I guess he did try to make amends for it, I mean he did become spy for dumbledore. But that being said, it was only to ease his guilty conscience or because he had nothing to live for. I wanted Snape to actually show Harry some courtesy, he's always hating on him (this is turning into a snape rant) just because of a grudge with james, i mean he still shares some of Lily's DNA, he has her eyes! He was not arrogant at the start, he was innocent. And he acts like it was Harry's fault that his father was arrogant. Snape only risked his life because his life weren't worth living without Lily in it. He didn't even care that that James died and that little harry could have. He was selfish and was slightly pressured by Dumbledore to keep an eye on Harry. Cos dumbledore said in the seventh book in snape's memory that he at least owes it to Lily to save him.:mad:
     
  12. Arkonian Doyle

    Arkonian Doyle Escapist

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Messages:
    137
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Middle Earth
    Ratings:
    +10 / 0 / -0
    Snape is a complicated character.
    Besides, felt so much pain. People act weird when they are grieving. He devoted his life to a woman that never loved him back the way he wanted her to. I simply can't hate him.