Should smoking be banned?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by Adina, May 3, 2005.

  1. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    4,705
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    West Australia
    Ratings:
    +186 / 1 / -0
    Re: Smoking banned!


    No government would be brave enough to make all its smokers quit cold turker by banning cigarettes. It wuld be political suicide. So once again we have to wait years and years, decades perhaps, for a known harmful product to slowly be phased out by taxing it highly and public health/awareness campaigns. Because people are too addicted to their vices to tolerate being forced to quit. A sudden stop would only result in a black market anyway. You've got to remove the craving for them before you can get rid of them.
     
  2. Fiel

    Fiel Guardian of Time

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Land of Lightning
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0
    It should, but that's impossible in the near future. There's too many people addicted. Instead we need to reduce new smokers first, then maybe smoking can be banned, that is, in 30~40 years...:D
     
  3. Mububban

    Mububban Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    4,705
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    West Australia
    Ratings:
    +186 / 1 / -0
    Smoking produces about $1 billion into the Australian economy per year for jobs and taxes, but costs $31 billion in health, medical, loss of productivity problems etc.



    Tell me again why your right to smoke is so important?
    I'm no big fan of the drinking culture of Australia, but that's for another thread.
     
  4. Celticberserker

    Celticberserker New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    So essentially you're saying?

    If you don't approve of it... No one should have the right? I smoke and drink, my opinion is that if you don't like one or both that's your choice; a fairly smart choice in many respects.

    But if anyone tries to take away my right to indulge in the joys of alcohol or tobacco, then they may quite possibly receive a machete blow to the head. Although I actually do want to quit smoking...
     
  5. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Canada
    Ratings:
    +77 / 0 / -0
    There are many behaviours in society that are enjoyed by many and abused by a few.

    We can argue all day for and against something but in the end what I find most annoying is the gradual erosion of personal freedoms that many enjoy.

    This world is increasingly becoming a nanny state. It won't be long before they send certified workers to your house to wipe your butt because some special focus group deems us incapable of doing it ourselves.

    Jeez, in New Jersey you can't even pump your own gas. How embarassing is that?
     
  6. Celticberserker

    Celticberserker New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My god I know EXACTLY what you mean! It was like that movie supersize me, where he says that the personal responsibility of the public isn't enough.

    Thus he tried to take the choice from their hands by his little campaign to have the supersize me banned.

    AND THAT! Is one of the key experiences I'd look forward to if ever going to a holiday in the US.
     
  7. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,207
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The Drunken Isle
    Ratings:
    +94 / 0 / -0
    I agree... although I have had family tragedies with lung cancer and alcoholic relatives, I do believe that each and everyone of us has the right to make those choices.
    I will also stress that the right to smoke does not take precedent over ones right not to inhale smoke. Therefore if one is sitting beside a smoker and is by consequence inhaling their smoke, they have the right to ask the smoker to move away! The smoker has the obligation to either move or stop smoking... end of story!
    Smokers do not have the right to smoke at someones expense!

    I also believe that a public health system should not cater for smoke related illnesses. People may not agree with this, but i stand by this belief even when it affects the people i know!
     
  8. Celticberserker

    Celticberserker New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I'll agree most definitely about respecting other people when it comes to passive smoking; thus I agree that not smoking in bars and public venues is reasonable.
     
  9. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Canada
    Ratings:
    +77 / 0 / -0
    Why not? Smoker pay taxes. Both in income tax, taxes on tobacco, and sales tax.

    Personally, I pay double what the average citizen pays in taxes because I make double what the average person does. Why should I? It's not like I use more services than a poor person who decided not to go to school or apply themselves or get a job? I actually use less services, how's that fair?

    Why should public health pay for childbirth? Keep it in your pants, why should I pay? Sex changes? They're covered in Canada (while circumcision isn't), why? AIDs? Hey I'm not a philanderer nor a junky nor a gay; YOU engaged in that activity, why should I pay? How about that broken arm when you were skateboarding? Dummy, you should pay.

    There are all sorts of personal decisions that can land you in the medical system. Why should you deny anyone medical attention for engaging in a LEGAL GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED activity?

    I would love to see a user-pay system. I would be getting a bigger house with the $25-$40,000 I would save a year in taxes. Might have to step over the bodies of a few dead vagrants on the way home, but I digress...
     
  10. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,207
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The Drunken Isle
    Ratings:
    +94 / 0 / -0
    For what its worth, Im quite the socialist when it comes to healthcare. Living in the EU most of us can avail of an amazing healthcare system and it is for the most part free, paid with our taxes. Your argument is obviously right winged and quite simply laughable! Based on my own belief, I have no problem if my tax money is being spent on a woman in labor or the unforeseeable accident that resulted in a broken arm.

    With smoking its different simply because its an extra burden on health systems when the income generated on cigarette tax is not going into treating smoke related illnesses but instead it is gone into huge campaigns to stop people from smoking in the first place. From lobbying against the tobacco industry to ad campaigns warning of the health issues. In other words, my money is being spent to inform people of the health risks associated with smoking. Im fine with that, however i am not fine with people who ignore the warnings and then 10 years down the line expect to be treated again with my money!

    Smoking is a choice and a foreseeable cause of illness, do not mistake it for the odd accident or a woman in labor. Its insulting
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2009
  11. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Canada
    Ratings:
    +77 / 0 / -0
    But why? Pregnancy is a choice barring some freak accident at a nudist beach.

    Never been on YouTube? The site is full of accidents that are perfectly foreseeable.

    Living life is full of inherent risks; we've chosen as a society to take care of each other regardless of the circumstance.

    I don't see the difference in paying for cigarettes I didn't smoke as opposed to paying for children I didn't have or extreme sports I don't partake in or for car accidents I didn't cause.

    And if you're upset that tax money collected isn't being directed to its intended use then perhaps you should examine the policies of your government; because I'd bet dollars to donuts that the misappropriation of tax dollars from cigarette taxes is a pittance compared to most government waste.
     
  12. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,207
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The Drunken Isle
    Ratings:
    +94 / 0 / -0
    There is clear line between what may happen and what will happen. Smoking is a foreseeable cause of illness, it isnt a probability or a risk it is a definitive.

    A woman in labor. The argument is foolish. It is imperative that a woman has all the medical attention she needs because you are not only dealing with the life of the mother but the unborn child too. Although she made a decision and she will need medical attention, you are dealing with a child who didnt make a choice and therefore it is unfair to put its life at risk.

    As for your youtube 'argument'... the amount of money spent on those type of accidents are absolutely minuscule compared to the huge bill smokers present to the the government each year! Not only that but again although some of them are highly probable (and believe me, i think they are stupid too) they are not definitely going to happen, they are accidents.

    And it is not the fault of the government who only try to raise awareness of the dangers of smoking.
     
  13. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Canada
    Ratings:
    +77 / 0 / -0
    Actually, I know a woman that's smoked for over 60 years still kicking. I also know of a 26 year old that died on the weekend in the Detroit Marathon. Nothing is a "sure thing" only a probablility.
    http://www.freep.com/article/20091018/SPORTS23/91018016/1318/3-runners-die-in-Detroit-marathon

    It's not foolish at all. The fact that the woman got herself pregnant put the child's life at risk. I didn't have anything to do with it. Again, why must I pay?

    A dollar or a dime, waste is waste. Is it any different whether I steal $2 or $10 from you?

    Wouldn't it be grand if we could pick and choose exactly where your tax money went?

    Anybody that doesn't know by now that smoking is bad for you must've been living under a rock and won't get the message no matter how much you try to educate them. It was well established when I quit before most of the posters on this board were even born. You were 3 years old when I quit.
     
  14. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,207
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The Drunken Isle
    Ratings:
    +94 / 0 / -0
    Ok clearly your not understanding what im saying. Those 3 folk who died wasn't exactly foreseeable nor was it probable and has nothing to do with what were talking about.

    Lung cancer isnt the only thing that effects smokers. It can cause numerous illnesses as well as accelerating and magnifying many others. Again this woman may not yet have a terminal illness brought on by smoking, and she might not get one, but her smoking will effect her ability to fight off other illnesses and cause a need for further medical assistance she may not have needed if she didn't smoke.
    There is a risk in everything, except smoking. That is definitive.

    If im not mistaken, you too seem to be of the belief that your tax money shouldn't be spent on other peoples medical treatments. Why then are you arguing with me?

    Lets put it this way. Is it any different whether I steal €10 or €1000 from you?
     
  15. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Canada
    Ratings:
    +77 / 0 / -0
    Because you fail to realize that when you exclude one group, whether you believe in the cause or not, from socialized medicine then you should be prepared to exclude ALL groups.

    I don't cornhole other guys, do drugs nor engage in unsafe practices that can have me contract HIV. Yet my tax dollars pay for HIV education, research and treatment.

    I never stuck my dick in the trailer trash crack whore, but rest assured I pay for her 4 neglected kids on a medical and financial basis, pay for the social workers and the kid's schooling and through social assistance probably put crack in her pipe on welfare check day.

    I never fathered the inbred moron who decided he was going to do a 720 with a half-twist off the rail in the mall but rest assured that my tax dollars pay for the quad's medical bill, his living expenses, and the higher insurance premiums that protects the business against a lawsuit.

    All of the things I listed above have been warned against, educated against. So why should I pay?

    If you should get out of paying for things that I don't believe in, why shouldn't I?

    As for the €10 or €1000 question, the result would be the same if it was in my presence. A crack on the head with a baseball bat. There isn't much difference in my eyes.

    PS. And yes, those 3 was foreseeable, just not probable. What do you think are the chances they would have had a cardiac arrest that morning if they had of been sitting in church rather than running a marathon on a cold fall morning?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2009
  16. Kenshin

    Kenshin Drifter

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2007
    Messages:
    2,386
    Likes Received:
    138
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Fairfax, VA
    Ratings:
    +138 / 0 / -0
  17. Celticberserker

    Celticberserker New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I love you man.
     
  18. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Canada
    Ratings:
    +77 / 0 / -0
    Probably black as coal. As opposed to the ash grey of the dead runner.

    I just want to clarify; I'm not PRO-smoking, quite the contrary. I think it's terrible for you, I "officially" quit in '93 although I do have an occasional cigarette if I'm drinking or an occasional cigar.

    As I spoke about earlier in this very thread, my father smoked and died of cancer.

    As I said earlier, what annoys me is the erosion of personal rights. As crappy as it is for you, smoking is still a LEGAL, GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED (ie, they collect taxes on it) ACTIVITY. To me, to even suggest denying a smoker medical care is beyond ridiculous, considering that person also pays taxes and since the medical care of many other activities, even illegal activities, is covered.
     
  19. Warlock Lord

    Warlock Lord I am a Fashion Statement

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,207
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The Drunken Isle
    Ratings:
    +94 / 0 / -0
    hold the phone... i never said they should be denied medical care, i simply said that treatment of an illness caused by or magnified by smoking should not be covered under any government health plan. If they want to purchase an insurance which covers smokers, thats fine!
     
  20. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Canada
    Ratings:
    +77 / 0 / -0
    The same analogy can be made for childbirth and skateboarding and every other reason to go to the doctor. Takes away the purpose of universal health care, doesn't it?