Should Immigrants Assimilate?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by RayCaptain, Jun 10, 2018.

  1. RayCaptain

    RayCaptain Anti-Hero

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    Alternatively, up until the 1960s, I don't know that America would be seen as very democratic unless you were white and not impoverished. Further back we throw being a male into the equation. Further still and land ownership was a prerequisite. What I mean is, "democracy" as you mean it, is an experimental ideal at the very most and I'm very unimpressed with what, in effect, are the ugliest beauty pageants in the world that elect reality tv stars.

    I don't make pretend that these ugly beauty pageants are going anywhere. No more than I suspect that NYC will be cleared of its rat infestations. But all the same I view it in proper revulsion.

    If you think everything that isn't Liberal Democracy is "dictatorship" then I'm not sure there's much discussion to be had here. I'm not talking down to you at all, your understanding of the ideological field is just shallow at best. That isn't uncommon in the West anymore.

    If expecting someone to speak the language and abide by cultural standards is psychological warfare and dehumanizing, then let's go to war. I disagree with your framing of the issue because you specifically stated that it was a cause and effect of the issue and think you're incorrect, but we'll use you're language. For the sake of a homogenous culture, let's "dehumanize" everyone by teaching them English and engage in "psychological warfare" until they understand that, in our culture, you need consent to engage in sexual acts.

    Your ancestors did not come as modern immigrants, they came as settlers and conquerors. I'm not speaking to the morality of the situation or their guilt or innocence in the matter (which you have no part of either way and bear precisely zero responsibility for) simply the facts. Now, if they came as immigrants, trying to be a part of whatever proto-nations existed, they should have conformed. I just said they didn't though.

    Modern immigrants are coming to be a part of our country, aren't they? If they are, then they assimilate. If they come as invaders, I would not expect them to assimilate. But then, if someone is invading your country, you have a military meant to handle that.

    So which is it? Our ancestors came as invaders and won wars for control of the land. I think today's foreigners come as immigrants, not invaders, and should be met with assimilation and not rifles.

    Hopefully that clears your misunderstanding.
     
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  2. S.J. Faerlind

    S.J. Faerlind Flashlight Shadowhunter

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    Oh, I don't know about that last statement. I suspect we agree that current democratic systems aren't perfect. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I suspect where we disagree is that we can actually make them perfect. So, if you don’t like everyone getting a vote and having their say, how would you set up a government then? I invite you to tell us all about Raytopia.

    Not quite....
    You see, after re-reading the thread comments and looking at the post ratings given by each member to other comments, I have to wonder about something. You say that foreigners today come as immigrants, and not invaders, but I'm not convinced that you actually believe that. It's quite possible to hold a belief and not realize that you do. All of us do this and it affects us and our thoughts in ways we might not realize. Here are some of the prior post comments I present as evidence for this:

    Realizing this, I think some of our disagreements are coming from confusion about the definition of immigrants vs invaders. Shall we define for debating purposes, a definition between immigrants and invaders then? I propose that immigrants are those wanting to enter a new country and who are willing to abide by its laws. If that means they have to change some beliefs they have traditionally held in order to uphold those laws, they will do so because they wanted to immigrate to a foreign country. Invaders are those who want to impose their own beliefs, attitudes and culture on the population they invade. They will set up laws as they feel it is appropriate.

    Now, going back to the original question of the debate with these definitions in mind. I don't think that immigrants should have to assimilate unless they want to. I think ethnic diversity is a good thing. I don’t regard people who want to practice their traditional culture in a new place as invaders unless they want to step outside of the laws of that new place to do so. I suspect that if people regarded cultural differences that fall within the laws of a society with acceptance, then ethnic diversity would not cause so much tension.

    On the other hand, I don't think invasion is a moral action at all. I don't agree with invaders entering my home country now and I certainly don't agree with the fact that my ancestors invaded the indigenous country Canada was in the past. What's done is done and nobody alive today can undo it. Still, I firmly believe we must learn from our mistakes in the past. If that involves guilt to motivate people, then so be it. Learning from the past will be critical to how we handle the future. Humanity is now exploring space and is talking about and moving toward a settlement on Mars. Colonization might just be a future reality again, so as a species, we need to decide on how we are going to handle ourselves if we manage to find life out there in space. How do we feel about invasion now knowing what we've done in the past and what resulted from it?
    You seem somewhat conflicted on this question, Ray:

    vs
    Given these contradictory statements, how do you feel about invasion then? Is it OK for one culture to invade another because it counts itself “superior” to the one it’s invading, or is invasion not an ethical thing for anyone to do? I don’t think asserting that it was OK in the past and not OK now is going to cut it for an answer given that our species is now possibly facing future colonization by exploring space.
     
  3. RayCaptain

    RayCaptain Anti-Hero

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    Basically, the short answer to the question at the start "should immigrants be expected to assimilate?" is a simple "yes".

    / thread