Should Greece be excluded from EU?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by anonymous, Mar 7, 2010.

  1. Justice

    Justice New Member

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    Now now, that was just good old fashioned European bashing actually. I included other countries too. :D

    France's debt may not be as high as neighboring countries, but their pending debt obligation with pensions is almost just like Greece, young retirement ages, excessive compensation for pensioners, etc.

    Growing debt is not a European problem though, it's worldwide. In a few years, California will become like Greece, i can guarantee it. However, if government workers broke out in a riot here, there would be such an enormous backlash against them that such actions would be greatly against their interest. There's already backlash against state government here as the state has been hiring thousand upon thousands of employees when the economy has absolutely collapsed. Despite shrinking revenue, California is still adding billions of dollars to our deficit every year with government employee compensation and pensions. The Governator (the second worst if not the worst governor we've ever had behind only Gray Davis, the man we recalled) even looked into declaring bankruptcy, or actually making the state of California insolvent. Imagine that, California no longer existing.

    Might not be so bad though. Might need to dip into my zombie apocalypse gear sometime soon though if things keep getting worse like this.
     
  2. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    lol. yes. Dust off your bomb shelter. Never mind the commies, we're going apocalypse by economic collapse! :eek:

    Anyway, the Machiavellian overviolent response is always an option. But please do remember the LA police riots of 1992. Shock & Awe is not always evident as a solution, as it might backfire in a rather explosive fashion. Really angry people are very hard to control with violence. Still, it might be done, like Tiananmen Square.

    With the 2008 riots fresh in mind, Greek police violence might have triggered something very, very nasty indeed. People haven't forgotten about that, it's just beneath the skin and might easily flare up. And that would be disastrous in the current, explosive situation.

    But yes - I know the other contries are in trouble. And that France might be in for a bumpy ride. But still, it's like France is the arch enemy of the US, directly followed by North Korea and Iran... Ow well.
     
  3. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Again I remind you Turambar it's not "people who haven't forgotten about that",it's the leftists who still remind that.It's the leftists who always find a cause to protest about something.

    And it is the leftists who don't want to cooperate no matter what,even when all the other political parties are trying to find a solution for nationa unity right now.The Communist Party of Greece and the Coalition of Radical Left.They keep refusing to cooperate with the other parties and they don't want to cooperate with anyone else considering them either corrupted or capitalist of fascist.
     
  4. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Well.... I didn't say all people ;)

    But at least Athens hasn't forgotten about it. Not just leftists.

    It's more complex than that, I feel. A lot of people who are indifferent about left/right still seem to feel sympathetic for the kid who died and the subsequent riots. That tension hangs over the current situation, or so I feel.
     
  5. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    No,it's not about that.It's about the corruption and the scandals of the politicians that have been going on for 30 years.
     
  6. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Hehe. yeah.

    Foin, it's always about everything. Right now, that notion is very strong, I will admit. But that doesn't mean the 2008 mishap has been forgotten. And, I will bring to remembance, that was more or less the same. A general feeling of unhappiness in the young generation of students and workers, caused by gouvernment failure (or so they felt). This might be about current state of affairs, but that doesn't take out of the equation the baggage that has brought people to this point.

    But, back to my point. If anyone, any of the protesters would have died in last week's riots, then everyone would have cried Alexandros, whatever the cirumstances. It would have been 2008 all over again. And a lot nastier at that, too. That is the baggage of 2008. And that is the point I tried to make to Justice.

    And, yes, even without a casualty, the tension of 2008 still looms over Athens. The rioters haven't forgotten. The shop owners haven't forgotten. The opposers haven't forgotten. The silent supporters haven't forgotten. The police is still confronted with it every day, as you well know. Exarcheia hasn't forgotten either... That tension hasn't disappeared with the riots.
     
  7. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Without a casualty?The anarchists killed 3 people by attacking a bank with the molotov bombs.
     
  8. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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  9. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Interesting article from the Greek magazine "Strategy".For those of you who don't know of the issue by the way,Greece had agreed to buy around 400-450 BMP-3 Infantry Fighting Vehicles a few years ago,but that agreement didn't actually become reality.However,our army is in need of a large number of modern IFVs since we have no real IFV of any kind except for old M-113 and Leonidas I/II APCs.
    The economic situation in Greece has stalled the procedure and made the army and the Ministry of Defence to wonder how to go on with the deal since the Russians seem to insist and try to give us solutions for the problem all the time.

    Here is what they propose to us.The translation from the magazine's article is mine:

    So(Russia)proposes part of the program's payment,of the heigh of 1,3 billion euro with greek products,mostly agricultural!

    ............

    Up to 350,000,000 Euro in greek agricultural products will be absorbed by the internal russian market,in a time where Greek farmers suffer to achieve exports due to Euro,especially in countries out of the Eurozone.
    Russia is the greatest buyer of greek agricultural products,outside of the Eurozone,but even here the exports have suffered a decrease because of the economic crisis.

    .............

    It is the first time that a program to increase the defensive capability of the country is connected with the support of the agricultural production!



    So in a few words the Russians say if you can't pay a lot of money now for the 420+30
    BMP-3HEL right now,try to pay off the cost of the program,of the agreement at least partially with various products and mainly fruit and vegetables and other agricultural products you can give.So the farmers will make money out of it,the country will get the vehicles and the Russians will be happy too.

    So if after that,our government does nothing again,if they stall it or turn it down or anyway act like idiots and don't pay any attention,any SERIOUS attention to this kind of deal,you'll know that our government is more stupid than you already thought by now.
     
  10. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    No it isn't.

    Greece has a terribly large army for the size it is and the budget it has. No doubt that very army is a root cause for the financial problems at hand. And to what end? Defend against an ally-NATO member? I understand the past animosity - but exactly this period in its history, Greece needs to decide where to take the country and reassess the risks in the region.

    The agricultural products are usually much better sold on the international market. And Greece needs to have its finances backed to sustain the recent, but very fragile recovery.

    This is merely a trick, by the way, to get from under the IMF restrictions, which, no doubt, would block military transactions like these. It doesn't make for a reliable partner in recovery. The countries now ready to back Greece financially will probably feel bamboozled by a deal like this. And it's these partners, and none other, who will keep Greece upright.

    In short: BAAAD idea.
     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Unfortunately we do need those vehicles and we do need Russian support,because Turkey has more weapons,equipment and manpower than we do and they have been trying to get more weapons lately very fast and in big numbers: They plan on acquiring about 27 more attack helicopters in the near future until they make or buy a new modern attack helicopter,they have already made plans for the construction of their new "Altay" battle tank and they also want to get American F-35 jet fighters.I doubt that will happen anytime in the future,but Turkey wants even more weapons all of a sudden and in very large numbers.
    Tensions have been escalating in the area again for the past 2-3 months with Turkish jet fighters flying over Greek Navy ships during live fire exercises and other.

    NATO countries yes,friends no.Suspicion mutual and Turks are known to strike when we are in a chaotic political situation.

    YOU KNOW WHERE YOU AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARE?You're in the Balkans baby! :D
     
  12. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Aren't you forgetting the small issue of Greece being one of the largest net beneficiaries of the Common Agricultural Policy? In effect you want/expect Europe to subsidise your farmers so their goods can be traded for arms because Greeks are paranoid about Turkey and have run out of cash.

    Greece needs to rationalise the needs of it's military against the financial realities.
     
  13. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    And who's gonna protect us from a Turkey that keeps getting more arms and plans on getting even more arms in the near future?
     
  14. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Turkey borders Georgia (on the verge of (civil) war); Armenia (another age-old enemy); Azerbeijan; Iran (potentially nuclear); Iraq (most unstable contry in the world); Syria (recently several skirmishes with Israel) and Cyprus. And it has building tension with Israel. And it has domestic issues with the Kurds.

    Of course they want a large army. Besides, they have a militaristic history, fed by the current move towards conserivatism.

    It seems to me that Greece is least of Turkeys worries. International politics completely rule out an aggressive move against Greece right now, as Turkey stands under the umbrella of the West.

    Ow, and there is no precedent for Russia coming to the aid of a Nato country. Russians have a plan of their own. Screwing over partners is part of that plan. You read into the gas deal Russia made with Serbia.

    Sooo... what could Greece do besides playing along and spending money they don't have on a military system?

    you really do believe that, don't you?....
     
  15. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    Sometimes I think that the most simple way of getting rid of those age-old hate and enemy stuff is what the allies (thankfully) did with Germany:
    Destroy, occupy, help to build up again while totally re-educating the whole nation. Then wait until the last of the uneducatable fanatics die of old age and then practise a slow retreat, while being sure the country is stable and bedded in a working Union of its ex-enemies nations.
    Did that make any sense to you? It's one of the reasons why I don't go around yelling anti-french phrases.

    I'm sorry if it doesn't really fit into the discussion, but it sometimes seems that Greece and Turkey threaten each other because they're suspicious of each other because they threaten each other... and so on.


    Edit: And if Turkey and Greece would fight a war, they'd be the first to prove a law wrong, which there is: "Democracies Do Not Make War on One Another" But then again, how do we define a democracy?
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2010
  16. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    In your first part yes,you are right.Turkey has many enemies in the area but already has a large army.However they want to increase their numbers and quality in the near future.
    You are right about he militaristic history,Turkey has had a long history of being a
    warrior-like country mostly due to the secularist military State that exists there and is led by the army.

    You say though that an aggressive move against Greece is completely out of the question for Turkey right now.Events prove otherwise:

    http://sofiaecho.com/2010/07/21/935557_turkish-jets-and-ships-enter-greek-territory

    Wed, Jul 21 2010

    Four Turkish fighter jets violated Greek air space on the afternoon of July 20 2010, flying over the small Aegean island of Agathonisi before Greek fighters scrambled and gave them a chase. Greek defence officials said it was the fourth such transgression by Turkish aircraft in three weeks, Greek media reported.

    In a further Turkish incursion, a Turkish marine research ship ventured into Greece’s continental shelf area in the northern Aegean where Athens claims the rights for exploration and exploitation of potential mineral and fossil fuel deposits, Greek daily Kathimerni quoted the defence ministry as saying.

    The manoeuvres of the Turkish vessel Cesme, in addition to the reappearance of yet another Turkish ship, the Piri Reis near Kastellorizo, is the latest episode in the ongoing bilateral territorial disputes in the Aegean.


    On June 10, Turkish jets entered Greek air space and made a sortie over a Greek frigate.

    In a more brazen intrusion, a Turkish naval vessel crossed into Greek territorial waters in March, headed west and sailed almost to Athens, the daily Greek Ta Nea reported.

    The corvette reached Cape Sounion on the Attica peninsula and the island of Kea, just south of Athens, before heading northeast into the Aegean sea and then proceeding towards the Dardanelles.


    According to Ta Nea, this is the 11th such case of violation of Turkish naval vessels since November 7 2009, and the sixth in 2010 alone.



    -----------

    Have you heard of the "Balyoz" plan?It's the most recent scandal in Turkey.In a few words cited from wikipedia:

    Sledgehammer (Turkish Balyoz) is the name of an alleged Turkish secularist military coup plan which reportedly dates back to 2003.

    Reports of the alleged plot first surfaced in the liberal Taraf newspaper, which said it had discovered documents detailing plans to bomb two Istanbul mosques and provoke Greece into shooting down a Turkish plane over the Aegean Sea. The plan allegedly was to stir up chaos and justify a military coup.


    And what wikipedia doesn't say is that,in order to take control of the country and oust the islamic government,they would take down one of their jet fighters if the Greek Air Force didn't do it and in order to raise the moral of the people and make them forget their differences between Kemalists and Islamists they would invade Western Thrace(in Greece)and occupy the northern part.A small part but still a part of it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan)

    Besides,the Russians really want us to buy these vehicles and we actually need them very much.They were part of a deal that hasn't gone on for years now and everybody is wondering what Greece will do about this matter.

    And about your last question,yes the Turks are famous for striking when a country is not at its best.And yes we are both NATO members but that didn't stop the Turks to invade Cyprus in 1974 and you forget that we almost went to war during the 80s and in 1996 during the Imia crisis.

    Plus in Western Thrace(or the Greek part of Thrace if you want to call it that way)the muslims who support Turkey are becoming more and more "fanaticized" by the Turks,using their own "flag of Western Thrace" on T-shirts and the Turkish politicians are paying too much attention to this matter.

    So I'm just asking you:

    WHO is going to protect us if they attack?Will NATO do it?No.Will Europe do it?No.Who will protect us?Why should we stop giving money where its actually worth giving it to protect our country when we know that in the 21st Century there is much talk and little action.I'm not expecting NATO or Europe to send troops to stop Turkey if Turkey invades Greece.I expect lots of talks,lots of diplomacy and lots of threats against Turkey.And while all that will be going on,lives could be lost and places could be taken over creating a status quo.
     
  17. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I'm glad we agree for once :D

    You say though that an aggressive move against Greece is completely out of the question for Turkey right now.Events prove otherwise:

    http://sofiaecho.com/2010/07/21/935557_turkish-jets-and-ships-enter-greek-territory

    Wed, Jul 21 2010

    This happens EVERYWHERE around the world right now. Everywhere. Even the US and Canada are bickering over pieces of coastal area. Turkey just has a rather archaic way of showing it - though... in current development, not entirely unheared of, for the close watchers-on. Oil (and natural gas) counts - increasingly moreso



    I have heared of it. I didn't know that Greece was involved. But, then again, Greece would have had itself used for the occasion, that is a rather essential omission.

    The same isn't happening in Greece? No?

    You clearly have the wrong end of Brussels, mate. Turkey is a NATO member and eternally a potential EU-candidate. Greece is a NATO member and a full Euro-zone country. If a muslim country (which Turkey will be considered to be should they decide to wager an invasion) would even dare to touch Euro-zone territory, then it's business. You really have no idea how strong the lingering anti-muslim sentiment currently really is. In the eyes of mainland-Europe, an attack of Turkey on Greece would be Strike One in a Muslim v. Western war. On home turf anyway (Euro-zone being definite home turf). And there would be no mistakes about the outcome. None whatsoever.

    And Turkey knows this.
     
  18. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    I'm with Tur ~ an attack on Greece by Turkey would unite Europe in the defence of Europe and counterattack to secure it's borders permanently. Let's face reality too, an all out attack by Turkey would not be even noticeably delayed by the presence of a few hundred armoured cars so Greece might as well keep both it's cash & crops.
     
  19. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I'm really afraid that if an the Turks attack the European Union will just take too long to decide what to do and to actually take drastic measures to prevent any attack by Turkey.

    I mean I WISH it was so simple,Germany and France don't seem to like Turkey so much at least when it comes to joining the European Union,but would they send like 10,000 soldiers let's say to defend us or to stop the Turks from attacking?

    I don't know.

    On a sidenote I keep wondering how the money we got helped save the country when the people are starving.They are squeezing us like lemons to get whatever money they can get out of us now.
     
  20. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    As for germany, I'm not even sure if we have 10000 soldiers. I don't think so. >.> Well probably 10000 but a big part is in Afghanistan or somewhere near Africa.

    I'm not really into the whole issue, but somehow the greek must've spent A LOT MORE money than they had to be in the negatives like that. The natural consequence is that now, to pay it back, you need to spend a LOT LESS money than you actually have. It's called saving.
    We're doing it over here as well. At the wrong points (education) but it's all for the better (they say)