Should Greece be excluded from EU?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by anonymous, Mar 7, 2010.

  1. Blackness

    Blackness Well-Known Member

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    -snap-
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2010
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  2. Springmaus

    Springmaus New Member

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    ok. i'll try my best. i only have to find a job, pay my credits and after all i'll work for all greek nation. i'll help u, my friends!!
     
  3. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    25th March today,religious holiday for Greece and also national holiday.

    Today as a national holiday we celebrate the beginning of the revolution against the Turks in 25th March 1821.

    We traditionally have a military parade in Athens today.

    I wake up to watch the tanks,armored vehicles,helicopters,air fighters and the rest of our nice vehicles and stuff.

    Soldiers march and I am still waiting to see the tanks and all the other stuff.

    The parade ends.I stand there watching the TV trying to realize what the heck is going on.

    So...what the heck is going on really?They skipped all that because of the "economic crisis"???

    Today,25th March 1821 the struggle for independence against the Turks started.
    Unlike back then though,the message of today,25th March 2010 was,according to our politicians,that Europe has to help us. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Skyanide

    Skyanide The Big Meanie Staff Member

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    Maybe it was an attempt to be a little more fiscally responsible.

    When you're up to your eyeballs in debt you shouldn't be partying it up.
     
  5. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    That's what I thought too,maybe they didn't want to get any criticism from the newspapers let alone our European friends.
     
  6. Window Bar

    Window Bar "We Read for Light"

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    The same could be said for most of the industrialized world. We no longer have industry, but we have debts and social obligations. It's going to be an interested century,
     
  7. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    lol - so Greece is now flirting with the IMF; whether under pressure from Brussels or on their own accord, I don't know...

    But it seems Greece might be forced to have IMF solve their credit problem. If so, excrements will hit rotating device...

    For instance, Hungary recently had IMF support. IMF forced (amongst other things) the following onto Hungary;

    - Freezing of all wages in the public sector and gouvernment pensions
    - Removal of fixed bonuses from the public sector
    - Freezing of all social securty benefits
    - A law prohibiting budget deficit.

    I can easily see how IMF forces a 40-hour week onto the public sector against the same salary, laying off the rest. They may diminish military spendings. They may instigate stricter tax reinforcement...

    IMF is generally regarded as the Last Chance. Question is: will Greece take this sort of deal and, if so, will the population accept it?
     
  8. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Can I move to Switzerland please? :littlethi

    P.S. I think in Ancient Greece,whenever someone screwed up the economy of a city-state or got too "greedy" with public money...umm...he was executed or exiled.
    In modern Greece he lives and reigns and enjoys his wealth.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
  9. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    lol - Switzerland doesn't accept economic refugees, Foin :p
     
  10. SilverDragon.Xx

    SilverDragon.Xx New Member

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    On this subject I have to point out one thing, Greece's government are not the only government to have lied and xspent public money on silly things and through that helped get their country in debt, I live in Britain and theere has been a big Scandal about politicians using money for their own gain and so if we excluded Greece from the EU for that next country on the list would be Britain!!
     
  11. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    hehe - good thing they didn't adopt the Euro ^^

    12% budget deficit, I hear? They do take Keanesian economics very seriously indeed in London...

    I also heared Brown disbanded his gouvernment in favour of new elections? I'm not a big fan of his but, if anything, let's hope Cameron has some more... conservative plans for gouvernment budgeting? Maybe he'll have to take a leaf out of Maggies old book?
     
  12. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Ah,where's Maggie Thatcher when you need her?I'd trade Papandreou for her.
     
  13. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    I think Greece is over the edge...

    Looking at the interst rate, the debt covered by that interest rate will more then double in 10 years, if the interst needs to be refinanced. Now, the impact could be small if the amount borrowed is small, but looking at next month, refinancing €8,5bln spells disaster. Plus, with €8,5bln to be covered, interest rates will invariably move up.

    How long will Athens keep up appearance?
     
  14. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    UPDATE:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8639440.stm

    Greece has now formally requested rescue loans


    --earlier post--

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8639440.stm

    Greece 'to activate EU/IMF loans'

    Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou is expected to ask for activation of the EU/IMF debt rescue mechanism, it has been reported.

    It follows negotiations with eurozone nations and International Monetary Fund over the details of an emergency rescue package. It comes a day after data showed a worse-than-expected budget deficit of 13.6% of gross domestic product. Credit rating agency Moody's also cut its rating on Greek debt on Thursday.

    The loans package has been put together to help pull the eurozone member out of its debt crisis. Greece is swamped by 300bn euros of debt and needs to borrow about 54bn euros this year alone. In the middle of April finance ministers of the 16 eurozone nations agreed to provide up to 30bn euros (£26bn) in emergency loans for debt-hit Greece should it ask for them. At the time they offered a three-year financing programme at interest rates of about 5%, based on IMF formulas.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2010
  15. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    yup...

    Well, that's that, then. There is no more jumping the bullet - it's going to be biting it.

    But on the topic of Greece - I've brought up Hungary on an earlier date. Now, Hungary isn't doing quite so well right now. In 2008, they had to accept IMF intervention (although the economic situation in Hungary was a lot better). One of the results was the rise of a political party called Jobbik. Now, they could easily be captured under the extreme-right flag. Their main point of concern, or scapegoat, if you like, are the Gypsies. They (over-)crowd the prisons there (apparenltly) and dilute the national identity, as well as some other historic copy/paste accusations that have been used before. As usual, this happens under a grave economic crisis.

    Is this Greece's future?
     
  16. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  17. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Remember the Zoniana case?Well here's a video I just found on youtube,it's interesting to watch it and pay attention to what this guy says in the video.That all happened a few years ago.

     
  18. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    lol.

    This is much, much worse then I thought. It turns out that the €30bln ECB + €10-15bln IMF loan is only a start. The German finance minister, who is under great pressure regarding this dossier, calculated that he expects to see €100-120bln loan to Greece "and possibly more", spread over the ECB in the coming 3 years. And rightly so - Germany would take app. 25% of this sum. To put this in perspective: €120bln is about half of Greece's current debt.

    To give you an idea of the extend of the damage, I will bring matters home. The Netherlands is to contribute about 6% of the loans to Greece. Assuming €120bln, that's about 2,5bln euros per year. The Netherlands projects a 2% budget deficit over 2010 - that means 12bln euros. So, Greece will weigh for about 20% in our own budgetary deficit.

    20% extra deficit for Greece screwing up.

    Oh yes, they're loans. But loans with a high risk potential - there's no guarantee that Greece wouldn't need to cut or even default on some of them in the future.

    Greece, in the mean time, is very thankful. Loverdos, minister for labour affairs in Greece was quoted today saying that the measures put unto greece were unacceptable for the work force. But, all things considered, any other solution is even LESS acceptable. Its citizens prepare for strikes (as if strikes will safe the economy...)

    And that's the worst, the very worst bit. The longer Greece waits with biting the bullet; the worse the situation will get, the longer the measures will endure, the more money the rest of the EuroZone needs to invest - and the worse the measures eventually will be. And by the added burden, risking a similar fate for other Mediterranean EuroZone countries.

    I think that, on the whole, the EuroZone can support Greece and get it through this, as long as Greece cooperates. However, if it will even take one extra country with it...

    Buy Dollars and Gold bullion everyone...
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2010
  19. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Most German politicians want to cut Greece loose, rather than prop them up when there's seemingly little appetite by Greeks, to take the drastic measures necessary to get their country back on an even keel.

    To be honest the Euro-Zone would be justified in for doing so as it's clear that Greece never met the entry criteria in the first place. Greece is the first domino, Portugal and Spain are next. How many can the Euro-zone bail out?

    There's going to be a lot of belt-tightening around Europe. No-one's entitled to a free lunch at another nation(s) expense.
     
  20. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    lol - I think they already ate the free lunch, and now we're stuck with the dishes ^_^

    But there is no cutting Greece loose. There is no tool with which Greece can be uncoupled from the EuroZone. Only Athens can decide to start their own currency - and that is not in their advantage; and neither in ours.

    Besides, cutting Greece loose means Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland will face the same fate within a very short period of time. We now set the precedent for cases like these. And if the market is to know that perpetrators will be cut loose, confidence in these countries will sink like a slab of lead.