Should Greece be excluded from EU?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by anonymous, Mar 7, 2010.

  1. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    lol yes I do know that HK is part of China

    The only poll that's been published in the UK today shows majority support for Cameron's use of the veto, UK polls consistently show a eurosceptic majority. I'd be surprised if europe slammed the door on trade with UK even if we did exit EU. We'd be more competitive without all the red tape thats for sure but who knows how things will pan out either way. I'm pretty confident that we've enough intelligent people to make our way in the world ;)

    Of course I can't speak for the markets and what they'll do tomorrow although you'd be hard pressed to find a market expert who believes the 26-country accord does anything to address the current crisis or would address the inbalances within the euro zone.

    An interesting audio clip (second audio clip on the following webpage) with Martin Wolf really sums it up:
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1209/euro-business.html#audio

    I can't speak for the people either but then the EU leaders can't either having not asked them. There were some interesting & differing opinions in the CNN poll http://edition.cnn.com/2011/images/12/09/cnn.european.poll.results.9dec11.pdf though with such highlights as only 1 in 3 french respondents believing that they should continue to use the euro indefinitely.

    Interesting times ahead, you never know Cameron may well have saved the EU by vetoing it's institutions being tied to a currency union which may or may not survive in it's current form, perhaps the EU will survive it's fall... that'd certainly upset the Conservatives :D

    Incidentally on the issue of the use of EU institutions this was an interesting quote: (http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/44989)
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,802678,00.html
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b030b7f6-2419-11e1-bbe6-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1gGExRY3k

    So despite all the hot-air from Sarkozy, how long will it be before UK gets its opt-outs?
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2011
  2. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    ^ Well the markets didn't like with markets down, bond rates up, euro at it's weakest for a year. Today has seen markets & euro recovery marginally.

    It's been interesting watching the debate about the summit in the european parliament this morning. Obviously anti-British feelings were running high, even from some British MEPs for their 'lack of solidarity' but the comment that summed it up was from Barroso; "They [the 26] showed that they want more Europe, not less." And therein lies the inescapable crux of the matter.

    An additional statement also raised eyebrows "The United Kingdom, in exchange for giving its agreement, asked for a specific protocol on financial services which, as presented, was a risk to the integrity of the internal market.". But the protocol effectively asked for the current EU position, the status quo to be maintained and for permission to implement banking regulation (Vickers report) which allowed the UK to break up the UK big banks into separate retail / investment banking sections which lessens the risk to the wider economy. The UK is currently taking legal action through the European courts to allow them to do the latter as current EU rules potentially prevent us doing so. What Barroso was saying is that we will not protect the current EU rules if we fold in a new fiscal policy for the eurozone into existing treaties. That makes the UK the 'baddie' and the protector of the banks even though the UK wants to go further than the EU in regulation and has implemented a tax on banks which the EU hasn't. Go figure that out whilst expressing ill-informed moral outrage against the UK!

    What is effectively happening, perhaps inevitably, is the eurozone and EU are merging to become one entity. The bad news for the UK is that it leaves no room for 'outsiders' who are faced with the choice of 1) join the euro, 2) remain but jump to eurozone rules or 3) leave. I think, unless more of the 26 parliaments reject this new agreement the UK will eventually leave, there is no mandate for joining the euro and it's pointless being in without influence.

    The question I ask myself is 'was it worth it'? The draft agreement that the 26 have agreed to negotiate is just a revised version of the existing stability pack but with automatic & unhelpful penalties if structural deficit rises above 0.5% of GDP, unless it seems there is a political fudge (majority of euro members say it's okay) or if the economy is in recession. I'm not sure how the UK demonstrated a lack of solidarity by saying we're not being part of it given that we do not use the euro nor are we subject to the existing, unenforced, existing stability mechanism. The eurozone members of the otherhand have shown an amazing lack of solidarity ~ no action to deal with the current crisis, little money on the table for a rescue fund and even that's to be through the IMF who the Eurozone are desperate to involve to take the action they're not prepared to. The new stability pack will also lock those in trouble now in a downward austerity cycle ~ what solidarity the 'rich' north have shown!

    The winner in all this is the EU and probably the French who were probably the fiercest critics of an 'anglo-saxon' free market. The losers ~ the UK (at least in the short term until we find a new focus), the southern European countries and democracy itself. How many of the 26 governments who sign up to this will survive when they eventually face their electorate? Mind you those national politicians will become more irrelevant and toothless in this Europe anyway. Italy and Greece are paving the way with their unelected, EU puppet leaders.

    The UK should leave now before it comes a battle of attrition. We do actually get on with many of our European neighbours but the EU debate has the potential to permanently sour those relationships.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  3. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Lol. Look at what I found :D

    Errr.... sooo.... Any thoughts? If you ask me, Greece is going to exclude itself from the EU very soon - unless they're willing to make heav consessions towards last week's proposal. A proposal which has been declined in a democratic way by the Greek electorate - possibly under the the pretense of a better position in negotiations...

    In the mean time, the entire Greek financial system is on the verge of collapse, creating a ticking time bomb for Greek government.

    Tomorrow's make or break, in a long standing tradition of such days. Still hoping for a decent solution for all, but.... we'll see :)
     
  4. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Well a fudge / can kick down the road was agreed but the (3rd) bailout itself hasn't been.

    Unsustainable debt, crippling austerity which will stifle any chance of growth, the effective end to democracy in Greece, more exposure for EZ taxpayers... was it really worth it? Simple fact is that existing debts are impaired and should be written down like any bad debt. If they had been and a glimmer of light shown which made all the tough love/reforms bearable then the Greeks could at least cling to hopes of a better future. As it stands there is no hope. As one politician observed "we are watching a EU member becoming a third world country before our eyes" ~ the EZ must be so proud (not).

    Many will blame the Greeks themselves for their predicament and that would largely be right but all the bailouts have achieved to date is letting commercial banks of the hook and helped neither the Greek people or EZ taxpayer who have both been stuffed.

    In any monetary union there are common policies, taxation and the transfer of wealth between stronger and weaker regions. Until those common policies are in place the Eurozone will suffer these crisis.