Should Greece be excluded from EU?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by anonymous, Mar 7, 2010.

  1. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,784
    Likes Received:
    162
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Not in Amsterdam :)
    Ratings:
    +189 / 0 / -0
    Can... I just point out that Belgium failed yet another attempt to form a government??

    I think Greece is doing just fine :p
     
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -0
    What is going on in Belgium my good man?You guys have to stop arguing and decide if you wanna divide the country and go to France and Netherlands(Wallonia and Flanders respectively)or unite and prosper together! :p

    By the way,I don't know much about the British politics when it comes to the European Union,but I think I am more pro-British when it comes to some matters.Because the British were not stupid to leave the pound and go for the Euro for once and second I like the attitude of some British members of the euro parliament who are pro-Greek and anti-German or anti-French.
     
  3. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4,908
    Likes Received:
    215
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +225 / 0 / -0
    ^ There were plenty of Brits who wanted to join the euro and still believe we will. The issue at the time was that we couldn't converge our economy in a narrow enough band to realistically have the option of joining and to not rip it apart soon after! Equally there were quite a few politicians who warned of the flaws of a shared currency which are now coming home to roost ~ eurocrats put political expediency & ambition before fiscal prudence. Keeping the pound gives a bit of extra flexibility but doesn't insulate us from the global (or european) economy and comes with a downside, namely diminished influence.

    I think there's increased frustration with France & Germany, not just from Britain but most of the G20, as they frankly haven't come up with a plan that has a cat in hell's chance of succeeding or attracting support from creditor nations. There's little point in forcing further austerity on Greece & others when it obliterates any chance of growth for several years or a decade. Eurozone nations need to pull together to get out of this spiral and yes that means a transfer of wealth from North to South with strict future spending/borrowing rules. Convergence not divergence, an impoverished Southern European won't be buying anything.

    If it came to a vote now on joining the euro, assuming we could meet the rules, it would be an emphatic no. Even a vote on being in or out of the EU would be a close run thing and probably only marginally in favour of 'in' because of scare tactics that would be employed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2011
  4. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -0
    I understand.Britain wouldn't actually even need the European Union.I guess...that's just my humble opinion.
     
  5. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,052
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Mekta land of dreams! you can find me in Pireaus
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    at last someone that see the solution.... And i thought that i was going crazy with that thread...

    Germans don't want to share their wealth. They are responsible for the state of Greece Italy and Spain. Greek economy was powerful with drachma. And now they still want euro while the other counties collapse. I don't believe that they will help Greece. they just want new taxxes to gain back the money... But poor country can't produce more money. It is known. Euro destroyed Greece. the example.

    2001: 1 euro = 341 drachmas. So in 2001 with 341 drachmas a Greek was able to buy a loaf of bread ( good quality) and 241 drachmas left in the pocket.
    2011: In 2011 a loaf of bread costs (the cheapest) 0,90 euros and 0,10 euros in pocket.

    2001 a beer at pub in drachmas was 300 - 400 drachmas which is 1 euro to 1,20euro maximum.
    2011 beer at pub costs 5 - 6 euros (the cheapest)

    Salaries 2001 a good salary was 500.000 drachmas = 1.467,35 euros.
    2011 a good salary is above 1.000 euros.

    Those number are real numbers nothing from my mind foin or sevi can testify. Can you see now why Greeks fell to the abyss....(corruption also lead us to faster problems than spain's and italy's)

    Simple example to understand why the euro destroyed the south countries. Same happend to spain and italy...

    And now Germany that earned billion of euros from Greece Italy Spain turn their backs. And i m not mad with Germans. I m mad with the rest of Europeans that think that Greece is the black sheep. You see the truth is not this. Germany put her hand to make Greece be like thatby intrducing the euro to a country that had a great currency. Read the scandals in Greece 2001 - 2009. 90% of them has to do with paying German officers to sell products to us....

    EU detroyed my country. Uk was clever to stay out of euro and i admire them for doing so.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2011
  6. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -0
    Haha!He's right.Especially the beer and the salary examples.I remember that parents could give you 1000 drachmas or 3000 drachmas to go downtown and have a drink and now they give you 20 Euro(about 6,000 drachmas)or more to go downtown and have a drink.And like Anduil said a GOOD SALARY...yes a good salary is a bit above 1,000 Euro or about 1,500 Euro.Most salaries are about 800 Euro or so.
     
  7. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,052
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Mekta land of dreams! you can find me in Pireaus
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    there is no time for election said EU to Italy... WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU PEOPLE ARE???

    Uk can save this world from economic WW3 as did with WW2 sorry to tell that... but when people in this forum tells me that there is no time for referendum or for elections are against the democracy and support the germany's hegemony.

    But there is a kind of people who believe that there is still democracy in EU. Those are the real threat for europe countries.

    There is no democracy... erase the freedom for people = erase the democracy.

    to remind you ΔΗΜΟΚΡΑΤΙΑ = DEMOCRACY

    δημοκρατία = δήμος + κράτος δήμος = folk + κράτος(in ancient) = power. (in new greeks) = nation

    Merkel, Sarkozy, Van Rumpay denied referendum for Greek people and denied elections for Italian people.

    This called tyranny sirs or better, German hegemony with Netherlands and France be the good dogs of Germany.
     
  8. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,823
    Likes Received:
    159
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    here and there
    Ratings:
    +251 / 3 / -1

    First of all, damn right they don't want a referendum in Greece and spur-of-the-moment elections in Italy.
    You might want to ask yourself exactly why that is... because it's very likely the Greek and Italian electorate will vote down any more austerity measures and thereby continue down the road to ruin. And more to the point, the Germans have denied you nothing; you are free to hold such referendums and elections as you please, that you've chosen not to speaks volumes to your own internal corruption. You can walk away at anytime.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011
  9. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    7,802
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    VDNH Station,Moscow
    Ratings:
    +97 / 0 / -0
    Check this out:

    http://www.neurope.eu/article/merkel-and-sarkozy-want-samaras-sign-secure-leopard-and-rafale-sales

    And although I agree that Greece should buy more Leopard tanks and Rafale fighter jets(we don't have Rafale jet fighters yet)demanding that we buy stuff from them so that they can give us a loan is...outrageous if not illogical.

    For those who don't know,the Leopard tanks are among the best in the world,top quality German main battle tanks and the Rafale are considered as very capable machines.
     
  10. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,052
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Mekta land of dreams! you can find me in Pireaus
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0
    Are we??? No i don't think so, events already saw us the opposite.

    Events :
    Greek folk decided Papandreou to be the prime minister
    Papandreou asked for referendum
    EU denied
    Papandreou lost his job
    Papadimos has the power ( not elected)

    Italy
    Italians asked for elections
    Van Rumpuy said no time for elections
    EU denied elections
    Berlusconi lost his job
    Monti has the power ( not elected)

    You see actions show us that there is no democracy(in my opinion)...


    As for the electorates. There are no more money to cut... Germans want to cut more... you know bellow zero is nothing...


    You told me to ask myself why the did that. I can't read their minds. But i will answer you. They put technocrats to control the economies of bankrupt eu countries, persons who can serve them better than the elected prime ministers. (its logical from their part.)

    I m gonna make you a question though sparrow and i want to answer me frankly. Do you think that there is democracy in Europe when this is happening? When people can't decide if they want to stay in a Union or leave, when people want to elect their leaders than getting people that they don't know?


     
  11. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,052
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Mekta land of dreams! you can find me in Pireaus
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0
    this called hm ..... contradiction

    So are Greeks allowed to do referendums or they aren't allowed?

    Decide please :p
     
  12. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4,908
    Likes Received:
    215
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +225 / 0 / -0
    Interesting to note that even Germany today saw a lack of interest in their bond auction ~ only 3.6bn taken of 6bn euros worth on offer.

    & that Belgium cannot pay it's agreed share of the Dexia bank rescue.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15854116

    I think the dominoes are about to start dropping and we're all going to be up to our necks in the brown smelly stuff.
     
  13. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,052
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Mekta land of dreams! you can find me in Pireaus
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0
    i m afraid to say, that EU its at the d day ...
     
  14. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,823
    Likes Received:
    159
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    here and there
    Ratings:
    +251 / 3 / -1

    Unfortunately that's not a relevant question.
    It's not a question of democracy, but more of commitment and responsibility.
    Greece, like the other member states of the EU have made a binding commitment to that Union. I'm not at all sure if there's even a mechanism in place to leave the EU. By comparison I offer our United States of America. In 1861 a group of 'slave states' under a Confederacy decided to secede from the union... it did not end well. Was that any less a function of democracy? A democracy doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want.

    Our 50 States all have their own State Constitutions, they cannot however bridge or undercut the Federal Constitution and those rights which are preserved for everyone. This is no easy matter and these issues frequently end up at the doorstep of the Supreme Court to this very day. When you enter a union of states you surrender certain rights.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2011
  15. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,784
    Likes Received:
    162
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Not in Amsterdam :)
    Ratings:
    +189 / 0 / -0
    Primary sovereignty still lies with the individual members, not with the union. Secession is still a very real possibility. I don't even think that being an integral part of the EU is part of most, if any, constitutions, which means it would merely take a majority in whatever house of representation is in place. The EU is not a nation as defined by the UN, so UN codes regarding secession do not apply.

    Reversely, I don't think the EU has the power to remove members from their midst.
     
  16. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4,908
    Likes Received:
    215
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +225 / 0 / -0
    lol way to go France & Germany....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16075890

    So they want to introduce a FTT which the EU itself says will depress GDP by 1% when Eurozone growth is expected to be less than that this and next year (The UK will veto any attempt to introduce it for the full EU). And they also want to equalise corporation tax which the Irish will no choice but to veto having attracted so much inward investment because of their low rate. Lose the cheap rate and the Irish economy will be in seriously, serious trouble instead of just serious trouble.

    At what point do the european electorate stand up and say we haven't voted for/agreed any of this? Is the euro worth saving that the 17 are prepared to dance to Germany's tune and ignore national democracy?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2011
  17. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,052
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Mekta land of dreams! you can find me in Pireaus
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0
    national democracy is already lost in my country...Germany will pressure to save euro at any cost.
     
  18. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4,908
    Likes Received:
    215
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +225 / 0 / -0
    Another BBC article, outlining what the various EU/Euro countries want to see from this summit and beyond..

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16036387

    The alarming thing from a democratic perspective is the blanket fear of asking their electorate for a mandate for change.
     
  19. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    4,908
    Likes Received:
    215
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +225 / 0 / -0
    Well it's heading pretty much as expected, there wasn't a chance in hell of the UK signing up to scrutiny of it's budgets or extra taxes as a price for the euro currency's failings. The only surprise is that so many non-euro members seem willing to go along with transfer of fiscal oversight. France & Germany are happy as they'll benefit most from this power grab and have Britain to blame if it all goes pearshape ~ even though we're not in the euro.

    They also get to accuse Britain of selfishly protecting the bankers at the expense of Europe, even though the PM was actually protecting UK jobs (approx 1.3m in London / 11% of GDP), european growth and competitiveness. If the euro thinks the FTT punishes bankers they are wrong, it punishes their customers ~ businesses, pension funds, private investors ~ and economic growth. If they wanted to punish banks they should introduce a bank levy as the UK has but that's not really the target, it's the UK's financial services which France & Germany would dearly love to get a larger slice of.

    I think now it's only a question of time before UK votes to leave the EU. Many europeans will no doubt breath a sigh of relief so they can accelerate the transfer of power to unelected eurocrats. Quite honestly I was and am all in favour. Dump EU regulation, redirect our net EU contributions into reshaping our economy, stop Spanish (in particular) trawlers overfishing UK waters and have full control over our borders and immigration. The EU aren't going to slam the door on UK trade as we import more from the EU than export to it, our government contracts are open to all EU whereas it's a closed shop elsewhere. We can be the Hong-Kong on Europe's doorstep.

    Now you may be getting the impression that I'm anti-european ;) , I'm not actually but Britain, in the main, has never been interested in the 'european project of political & economic union', we're interested in the common customs market and looser cooperation with our neighbours. A clean break would probably improve those relations immeasurably and the UK could focus on global trade rather than primarily european. If we're isolated in our views on the EU so be it, it doesn't make it wrong for us.

    In the meantime the markets still think eurozone is bereft of ideas for solving the immediate problem of sovereign debt so don't hold your breath for them to wait patiently whilst the eurozone hammers out rules for the future. This summit should have been about putting money on the table and enforcing existing euro deficit rules but instead it's just been about destroying democracy and the EU so that you can all dance to Berlin's tune (the french haven't realised that yet but the penny will drop eventually).
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2011
  20. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,784
    Likes Received:
    162
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Not in Amsterdam :)
    Ratings:
    +189 / 0 / -0
    You do know that Hong Kong is part of China, right? ;)

    To be honest, I agree with Clegg on the matter. The UK is set to marginalise itself. I'm afraid that the focus of the EU might shift, away from the UK. Which, in the long term, will make things harder, possibly for both, but primeraly for London.

    You can't speak for the market, as much as you can't speak for the people.

    The market speaks for itself on Monday.