Should Greece be excluded from EU?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by anonymous, Mar 7, 2010.

  1. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Anduil, it's only a BBC magazine article, a point of view by Professor Beard which is clearly stated.

    Meanwhile the euro saga continues to rumble... now it's Spain in the spotlight, and ncreasingly France too. European leaders seem to be acting as if frozen in a cars headlights paralised to come up with an adequate plan to stop the rot and a broader future vision for the eurozone that they all agree and their electorates will support. Once the eurozone throws it's combined effort to support it's currency and iron out it's underlying failings the IMF/G20 can pile into support them. The delays are just making the situation worse and the ultimate cost ever higher. It's been interesting this week reading the German criticism of Britain saying they should contribute more. Why? It's not our currency, Germany aren't exactly throwing money into the pot themselves* and Britain is the joint 4th largest contributor to the IMF (more than Chinese).


    *Germany refused to use Bundesbank gold to boost EFSF, contributed to failure of G20 talks ~ if the currency owners aren't prepared to support it why should other countries? http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/nov/07/cameron-g20-summit-german-gold
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011
  2. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Anyone else thinks that the European Union is turning into a German hegemony?
     
  3. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    I do think their 'our way or no way' approach will fracture both the euro and the EU and more than likely throw the global economy into recession. What they seem to fail to consider is that their success relies on their net export position. Freeze out the periphery (non-Euro) countries like the UK and hack off the southern european countries too and they stand to lose more. The UK is a net importer of finished goods from the EU. At least the Spanish get a vote this weekend unlike Greece and Italy run by technocrats & unelected governments.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011
  4. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    No.

    Germany has been granted a very powerful position within the Eurozone because they, above all other big countries, managed to keep their gouvernment finance in check. They, that is, the German electorate, demand not to give up this position, which has been won by constant austerity. And they have a right to speak up, since they are now endangered by those elements in Europe which failed to keep spending in check.

    Personally, I don't think Merkel is such a hardliner as she appears to be. Ask the Germans around.

    In the mean time, the continuing stalemate in the Euro crisis proofs there is no hegemony in Europe. If Berlin really did run the show, the solution would have been formulated long ago, possibly in 2008.
     
  5. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    You can understand that position but it's not helping with a solution to the crisis. It'd be better if they went all out to save the currency block on condition that certain future conditions apply, be it joint fiscal policy, strictly enforced spending and borrowing limits.

    As it stands with the richest eurozone country sitting on it's national reserves/wealth, why should other nations feel inclined to help out? The markets will force the breakup of the euro without resolute action by the eurozone. You can't buck the markets as the UK found when it was forced to bail out of the ERM despite the Bank of England spending (& wasting) billions although George Soros was happy they tried :(
     
  6. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    if there is not a hegemony of Germany and we believe that Europe countries are free... Why the Germans refused the greek referendum... hm...
    In a free europe folks decide for their future, right?
     
  7. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    I can understand that its an opinion by a professor, i don't have problem to listen to opinions.

    But historically proven things can't be changed. So when a "Professor" writes an article and says his opinion and do historical mistakes... i m sorry to tell that but he is a joke and should not entitle himself professor....

    Back to our thread i believe that Uk politicians should look to their matters and let the Germans pay alone what they need to pay...

    if Germans want this crisis to be solved they need to pay. When you got a problem in your house its not wise to ask the neighbour to solve it for you...
     
  8. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    The referendum was a trick of some sort. A deal was devised between Greece and Brussels about how to tackle Greece's financial problems. The deal, it transpired, didn't include a referendum. Papandreou jr proposed one anyway.

    Fact of the matter is that there was no time to organise a referendum. And the outcome of the hard-fought deal between Athens and Brussels was jeopardised by the referendum, since the answer was set in stone: NO. That would have put the entire European Union in a very difficult situation to which there might have been an answer, but an answer which would have come much to late regardless. Given the Athinian biotope, I believe Papandreou knew the referendum wouldn't be held before he proposed it. I believe the proposition to be political smoke and mirrors.

    In the end, the Papandreou gouvernment derived decisive power from a mandate of the people by election. Whether that means that they were empowered to take decisions in the best interest of the nation - or in the best interest of their electorate is food for philosophers. Bottom line is: he didn't need the referendum.



    If Papandreou really wanted a referendum, he should have negotioated one with Brussels. Not conjure one after decisions were made.
     
  9. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    Papandreou broke up 3 times the Greek law. When this happens in democracy the president asks the prime minister to gather a vote of trust from the parliament members. When president told to him that he is not wanted by the people.... Papandreou made the refenderum propossition to calm down the folk. BUT what it matters is that refenderum didn't happen. So the law was broken again. Cause when there is a national matter to be decided only people decide, not the prime minister. And we all know that Germany pressed Papandreou to take back the refenderum that's why he quit the primemister job... and let the technocrats take his job.

    That's the truth dear Turambar. so don't tell me that there was no time for refenderum...(i m not an idiot and you can't believe in such things) there is always time to fix things if you want them to be fixxed...

     
  10. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    Of course he wanted the refenderum, (he knew that EU wouldn't allow a refenderum) but law is law... and refenderum was the only solution to keep his chair...
     
  11. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    What's more in this thread we all know that Greek economy is 2% of EU. So count... count and tell me. since 2009 why there is still this crisis? I m waiting for clever answers....
     
  12. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Well... it appears you haven't had much experience in politics.

    Bottom line is that, at least of some part, his plan worked.

    Because it's rather bad PR to bail out the economy of a different country. It doesn't go well with the electorate. And, as a precedent, it's a really bad idea.
     
  13. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    pff no way to communicate Turambar...you got your opinion i got mine... we waste our time...

    next time link an article with real news please.
     
  14. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    I've thought of that too....so many times!Turambar sometimes is...Earth to Mars! :p
     
  15. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Yeah... I know.... Sorry.

    But, then again, I suppose that goes for most members. There's a cultural divide to overcome :)

    To be honest, I missed out on this post before. Something about a triple post.^^

    In reply: The fact of the matter is that Brussels (please note that not only Berlin was angry) did not take any knowledge of this obligatory referendum. Your claim may or may not be true, I don't know. It would make Greece rather unique, when it comes to that. Usually, the mandate derived from a house of representatives makes do. It's the nature of a representative democracy. However, if this is the case, Papandreou conveniently left it out of the considerations that went into the settlement that was agreed upon around the end of October. From what followed, we can surmise there was no talk about "how to deal with that referendum thingy". There certainly would have if it had been brought up.

    In reality, there was no agreement with a referendum attached. There would be no further support without this agreement. And Papandreou knew. In that sense, it wasn't difficult for him to surmise that there wouldn't be a referendum, even if he ordered one. The stakes were too high for all parties involved. Even within his own government and that part of the representation that supported him. In reality, the mere suggestion was political suicide. And again, Papandreou knew this.

    So. Knowing this, there must have been other motives for Papandreou to commit political suicide. I can figure out a few reasons why he would do it. But you tell me.
     
  16. Sparrow

    Sparrow Well-Known Member

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    Why is this crisis still around... try this, because while the Germans knew the Greek Govt. and it's citizens were corrupt and irresponsible, they didn't believe you guys were also insane... the Germans were horribly wrong about that. And remember, money rules. The Germans have it, so your laws are of little consequence.

    The other thing that is no doubt on the minds of Germans is whether this is throwing good money after bad. As it stands now nothing much has changed internally for Greece. The populous mindset is still the same, that is it appears there is no collective shame felt by Greeks.


    As for the faux referendum scare... it was just that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011
  17. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Shame?Lol shame for what?An elite got to "eat" all the money for the last 10-20 years and the rest of the people should feel bad that suddenly Germany which knew about all the corruption for a long time but didn't say a thing,accuses Greece for the economic crisis?
    A lot of people still like PASOK yeah but even MORE people dislike PASOK and many of the politicians in general.The average Jo here is up to the neck with taxes and burdens and has the Germany,attack him with bitter jokes and racist comments.
    If the Jerries care so much about the Euro,why don't they drag all the other European countries and tell them to pay a small amount of money for Greece to bail out.
    As if they can't give money to save Greece!For decades our corrupt governments have been bribing their companies and buying German tanks,artillery,electronics and other weapons and parts.Even a malfunctioning submarine is/was to be bought.

    The Germans knew very well that Greece was full of corruption.We even made movies about it more than ten years ago.
    Andreas Papandreou the father of former prime minister Giorgos Papandreou,was the beginning of the economic destruction of Greece.He kept getting money from Europe for support and various plans and he kept spending it.He raised the salaries,he raised the pensions,he started giving loans and financial help to the people.But all that wasn't for free.All that was money that was slowly disappearing from the country's treasury.And many people liked all that and kept voting him again and again.
    He kept giving money to the people.Money that wasn't his.Then Simitis took over,the big lying evil corrupted moron.He utterly destroyed the country.When Karamanlis and New Democracy came to power they tried to do some things,but their ministers and members of the parliament wanted to eat money too from the people.So that's what they did.And then Giorgos Papandreou came to power after saying that there are A LOT OF MONEY.And a few months after he got in power he publicly announced to the parliament and the people that "there were money"....and blamed the previous goverment for the country's predicament....
     
  18. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    ^ You could argue, as the Greeks were making movies about it a decade ago, that you should have collectively done something about it at the ballot box. That would suggest that whilst the fat cats were creaming it off, the Greeks were happy to go along with it as long as a blind eye was turned to their tax avoidance too?

    The Eurozone is just as guilty for letting it ride and the EU too for continuing to pay subsidies when fraud was rife.

    But all this finger pointing doesn't help the stability of the currency union. The imbalances within the eurozone are even greater with the 'I'm all right' north vs 'no hope' south.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2011
  19. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    true in Greece there is corruption... but not in poor folk that pay the taxxes. Its the politicians and some rich guys that didn't pay the taxxes all these years.(For the first time before two days i read in newspapers that Papadimos and the new goverment arrested a rich guy that owned to greek nation 6,7 million euros....) When Papandreou told to EU and Germany two years ago that greeks are corrupted , germans said put more taxxes. So the traitor papa put more taxxes that folk trying to pay till now(many families will not have electricity soon cause they can't pay more)... And when Germany realised that the money that missing is in Swiss did nothing...

    And i m still looking for an answer to the same question... When you got a crisis since 2009 and euro is in danger and you want the money back what do you need to do to end this crisis???

    options.. we got many..

    Germany acting like a wise blind leader. We know what is happening but we don't do a thing about it , we can't see that the stolen money are in Swiss... (600 bilions. Twice the debt of Greece)

    So tell me when you know were the stolen money of 30 years from greek nation are in Swiss why they put more taxxes??? And why the put mores taxxes when folk don't have the money to pay them.

    Take my example. In summer i payed an ammout of money for extra tax. Now a new tax of electricity bill came for my appartment. its 540 euros. as for my cottage in Kalavryta i estimate that i will pay at least 700 euros. I can tell you that i m 26 years old and i payed already 2000 euros in 3 last months. My salary is low... Imagine the same amount of money to get payed by a jobless guy that has two houses.... Its nice to accuse Greeks for corruption but this is not the entire truth you see... corruption is in politicians and men of power. Cause power corrupts every single person....
     
  20. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Yeah like Anduil said the government is expecting to get money from the people when they can't pay it.I mean they are expecting to pay for the debt by putting more taxes to the people...when the people have no more money to pay and absolutely NO endurance to pay more taxes.You can't ask someone to pay more money when he....DOESN'T HAVE any money....and this new tax that is about paying for the property you have through the electric power bill or have the power cut off...is just blackmail.