Should Greece be excluded from EU?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by anonymous, Mar 7, 2010.

  1. Running Wolf

    Running Wolf Join the Madness

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    And it's not even a funny joke
     
  2. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    The biggest joke is that the rating agencies haven't already flagged Greece as being in default. Simple fact is that they are already ~ they can only service their debts by being lent more to pay the interest on what they've already got. It's not helping Greece it's just creating an even deeper hole from which they'll have to climb. The combination of debt-on-debt and contraction of their economy, even if creditors "voluntarily" write off debt, will still result in a knackered Greek economy. The pretense that it won't is to allow the banks time to build capital with which to absorb loses and for the eurozone to save face. They'd be better off defaulting just as Iceland did, and getting out of the euro. It'd be brutally painful but draws a line. Greece is a beautiful country, they've got tourism on which to rebuild and with a devalued currency they'd get millions of visitors taking advantage and an inflow of hard currencies with which to trade.

    I hope they send a resounding 'No' when the time comes. The global economy will get over it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2011
  3. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    All greek people want to get out of Eurozone and EU. They hate EU and want the Drachams back. They want to kill the prime minister and the members of parliaments. Imagine that in 28th of October there is the Greek national parade to the memories of wins against Nazis and italians in WW2 and people were so angry with politicians. People didn't allow them to watch the parade and kick them out... Even the president of democracy was called traitor. There is no politician at the moment who is able to walk in streets with out getting killed... Things are dangerous...And of course they gonna say no
     
  4. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Well the genie is out of the bottle, the people will have their say. By linking an unpopular bailout to a confidence vote for an even more unpopular government it's a dead cert that the 'No' vote will win. The referendum idea cannot now be withdrawn without the protests getting really nasty/violent. The Eurozone will either have to sweeten the pill considerably or plan an exit strategy for Greece to prevent all the dominoes falling.
     
  5. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    Yea i believe that the best solution for EU is to find a mechanism to damage less the europe countires from domino results than helping Greece survive in a eurozone that doesn't suit Greece
     
  6. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    It sometimes appears that you are all greek people, Anduil. In my experience, they are quite diverse...

    That being said, I have no idea whatsoever what Pap is up to calling a referendum on the new EU plans. It can only mean that he doesn't agree with them. The referendum can only lead to a direct default of Greek national debt. The fallout and precedents it creates are frightning.

    Europe is at the mercy of the Greek people. And they have already decided...
     
  7. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Muahaha!Give us da money or Euro is going bye-bye!Or at least...I wish.
     
  8. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    Europe is at the mercy of BANKERS.... Sometimes i m really wondering if you are stupid to think that Greece gonna destroy Europe...

    Things are simple... Those guys that making profit from countries are the bankers and economic system.

    The answer of Greeks is no (i m pretty sure about it) You need to travel to my country to see people in every day life. To kill the Greeks in order to survive the rest of Europeans is not acceptable by me nor the rest of greek people. They(the bankers and the rich guys) started from Greece cause they wanted to hurt all Europe. So a NO to those ****ing beasts is a start for the rest european people to wake up. WE DON'T NEED THE ****ING MONEY TO LIVE. DEFAULT AND AWAY FROM EU its what Greeks want... We are tired to pay... We pay from 1830 and still we own...??? don't make me angry by those comment of your turambar, you show me that you are silly or live in a different world than reality. I m tired to pay to rich guys. I m tired to hear merkel says bullshit and german people do whatever she likes while rich people earn more money every moment we speak. NO NO and NO its my answer. If Europe collapses its your problem not mine. Europe wasn't just and will never be. You got your country i got mine. Its what we need to understand.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  9. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    He's right.We've been paying money since 1830.Papandreou and his son have "eaten" all the European money packages since the '80s.We can't pay for the stupidity of the rich,of the corrupted and of the politicians.We can't also bow to Europe and do whatever they want because that's what they think is best.We want to live our lives the way we want,not the way some European money-loving people want us to live so they can squeeze enough money out of Greece and Italy to "stabilize" their markets and their bankers and their mega-conglomerate corporations.

    And Anduil is right,if Europe collapses it's not our problem.If they are so worried about Europe collapsing they should all give us a small amount of money to bail us out.Each country according to their abilities.Print more ****ing money.Bail us out.Conquer Turkey.March to Asia.Unite with Japan.Ok now I lost it :p
     
  10. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    I remember when Theoden asked Where was Gondor when Rohan was vandalized?

    I ask the same question! Where was Europe when Turkey invaded Cyprus??? Where is Europe when Turkey violates air borders everyday???

    Greece faces default, where is Europe's firewall???

    Simple questions... I still remember when Greece said No to Italy in WW2 and gave Europe the lost hope when won the first battle for free people. And now greek people need to say NO to the goverment so the bankers to save all world from the ****ing economic beasts that want to earn more from me from you from finland italy france and evey country in the world.

    Why the cut money from education in England??? Why they transfered all the factories in China??? Answer me please...

     
  11. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Exactly!Before and during WWII Greece wanted to buy new and modernized air fighters,among them the famous Spitfire,and the Americans and British denied them and preferred to keep all of them for the British Empire,reject our wishes to buy modern air fighters and offering us only ancient planes,while our men were fighting the Italians and later the Germans.
    Where was England and America when Turks were launching Atilla II?Oh yes,they were flying their jet fighters between Greece and Cyprus to prevent mass help and reinforcements to the Cypriot brothers.WHERE is Europe when Turkey openly threatened us with war and in the 80s and during the Imia crisis and even NOW?
    The answer is simple.Nowhere.Only with words and warnings do they support and always supported us.And they want us to give our lives for them in every war and they want us to pay money to save Europe.What Europe?Which Europe?The Europe of France and Germany?This Europe?The Europe of Chancellor Merkel?Sieg heil?
    Was ist das?
     
  12. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    The bankers bought sovereign debt issued by governments. Don't blame bankers for the overspending / waste, point the finger at the politicians.

    Bankers expect to be repaid, they expect governments to honour their debts. Remember there'll be many investment/pension funds who hold 'safe' sovereign debt too ~ are those investors/future pensioners to blame?

    School spending hasn't been cut. The balance between state & individuals contribution for higher education (degree level) has changed expecting more to be contributed by the individual, funded by student loans. That's only repayable after graduation and once graduate is earning £21000+pa. Like many countries the UK has been spending too much, difficult and unpopular cuts have to be made.

    Many european countries have outsourced to China, India etc as the cost of labour is cheaper and purchasers want to pay minimum cost for goods.

    The reason for the referendum is simple. The level of protests are making austerity plans unworkable or uncollectable. Until the penny drops that there's hard decisions to make and Greeks (& others) roll up their sleeves to work them through to recovery, the Greek economy is on a hiding to nothing. A referendum with a decent campaign debate will outline the realities and consequences of each choice. I hope they don't make it a 'in' / 'out' vote but more 'yes' / 'no' to austerity measures/bailout. I think it's pretty disgusting the Merkel/Sarkozy 'we run Europe' show, running around humiliating and telling other leaders what they should or shouldn't do.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  13. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    Your blood boils hot, Anduil. You must have considered all the alternatives regarding Cyprus. I have no doubt that, undesirable as the situation is, you fully well know that other solutions would have had worse results.

    And where, really, was Greece when Russia violated Dutch airspace?

    This question is fictitious to non-Greek people.

    You know the answer. And you know you don't like me to give it to you.

    Because it's too expensive and the English gouvernment drastically seeks to reduce its spendings. Democracy has given the opportunity to the tories - this is the logical outcome.

    I sincerely hope you do know the answer to this one....

    Nationalism or rationalism, Anduil.



    No... this is not it. The outcome is so predictable that asking it is in vain. The motive must be different. It might be something about winning time or forcing the EMU to reconsider (after all, the decision to present a different solution to the public by referendum is up to Pap and his government). It's really hard to stop a democratic process once it's started or, at least, promised. Even for a democratically appointed prime minister. And certainly for foreign institutions. This plan is a full-frontal diplomatic attack on Brussels (or, at least, the Berlin-Paris axis) from Athens of the worst kind.

    But it is not about winning popular support for these measures, unless Pap and his men are really that naive.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  14. Turambar

    Turambar Harebrained Staff Member

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    DELETED: dp.... >.>
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  15. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Disagree Tur the evidence is on the streets of Greece every day.

    I'm not saying there's not additional motivations, the deal imposed on Greece will still leave them with an unsustainable debt level which they have no hope of repaying or growing the economy under. It's like telling a 100m sprinter that 6secs is the qualifying time instead of 5secs, neither are realistic so it's not worth attempting and end goal needs to be considered again. This is all about buying time for European banks not solidarity with Greece by the other 16 members who are barely putting their hand in their pockets now to help. Quite frankly the Greeks might as well be out than be ground into the dirt by the debt burden. If they accept these austerity measures they're effectively writing off this generation, the bailout doesn't go far enough.

    The euro bailout is all smoke and mirrors. A voluntary write-off of Greek sovereign debts by private holders (not other governments/IMF loans) so they can pretend Greece isn't in default, a trillion euro rescue fund that has no money that the eurozone will be trying to get external contributions for (even though it'll only be partially guaranteed) and a recapitalisation of the banks which will be partially raised on the markets diluting existing shareholders investments and the rest paid for by taxpayers. Even without the Greek referendum decision the markets were already falling only days after it being announced as they had drawn the conclusion that it was too little, too late, no detail, no substance.

    What would cure this whole mess is for all 17 nations to poll their sovereign debt, guarantee it so it's no longer impaired and enforce strict spending / borrowing rules across the eurozone. It was France and Germany who broke the original euro rules in 2003 weakening it as no sanctions imposed, they're hardly in a position to preach now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  16. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    The question is...if Greece leaves the Eurozone will that be the start for the collapse of the European Union?
     
  17. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    ^ Eurozone could come apart, other than perhaps a Northern European core. EU? Probably not. Even the UK which is probably the most euro-sceptic doesn't want the EU to come apart, just be more 'market' than 'union'. There'd certainly be an acrimonious period though ~ with lots of finger pointing going on and a rebalancing of contributions and subsidies.

    When the dust settles, however this shakes out, the one thing that will be universally agreed is that creation of the euro was flawed in design and application. Much of the criticisms when the currency was launched around economic convergence and governance have come home to roost. Unless the fundamentals are resolved (fiscal & closer political union) I can't see how the euro will survive. The question is have the politicians and electorates got the stomach for that?
     
  18. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Looks like both sides want to play hardball ~ agreed 8bn euro loan is to be withheld until after referendum held ~ they really don't want ordinary people to have a say and potentially throw a spanner in the works! That creates an interesting twist as Greece has already said it'll run out of money this month and referendum isn't expected until early December.... so could we have a technical default anyway?

    Also a difference on referendum question ~ Merkel et al want it to be in/out of euro, Greek government are saying it's going to be yes/no on bailout plan.

    Meanwhile the rates charged on Italian debt have reached record, unsustainable levels....
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  19. Foinikas

    Foinikas Playing backgammon!

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    Is the ship sinking captain?
     
  20. Anduil

    Anduil New Member

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    I believe that Europeans ( especially west Europeans) don't understand yet that the answer of Greek people is not the problem. Greeks for the first time of this crisis (2009) have the chance to decide what their future will look like. Till today the prime minister decided for them. He took many hard messure in economy. He destroyed families and sent people to hospital with serious problems. 2.000.000 people lost their jobs cause of crisis and noone did anything for that. Prime minister was travelling to Brussels all the time to agree to Merkel's and Sarkozy's plans just to beg for some euros. He took new loans of many billion euros that Greeks gonna pay them till 2050. He also passed the new messures to the parliament without the acceptance of all members and that was against the law of Greek nation. So the people said that this man is against the Greek nation and the people. We all go out to streets to protest and he sents the police to kill us. But you see no police can stop the crowds. So when he saw that he has not got the authority to rule the country cause of all those strikes he asks now the opinion of the folk. Two years without asking anyone he did what he was told to do. But now the Greek folk decides. This is democracy Turambar. ( i will vote No. i don't care about Europe and Euro cause they don't care about me.) I prefer to return to drachmas and to a default and watch the rest Europeans suffer as well for all those bad loans they gave us... Example Loan : 8 billion euros you gonna pay it in 36 doses with 15% interest.
    Its important to remind you that Greece pays for loans since 1830.
    I still remember the money that Greece gave for Germany after WW2 in order to rebuild their economy. We didn't ask them back cause it was for good cause. So i can't accept that Europe wants Greece in EU. You didn't help us you will never help us and we are alone as we were thousand of years. (That is what Greek people thinking. And its not only a party thinking its the millions of Greeks that are on strikes everyday that made the prime minister give them the chance to decide)
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2011