Should authors be judged for their works or beliefs?

Discussion in 'Every Day Debating' started by azuren82, Sep 2, 2008.

  1. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    It's ridiculous to suggest that evil ~ dark ~ black are not associated both in literature and real life. No-one's suggesting that in SWs that the 'dark-side' literally means the bad guys are stumbling around without light but everyone gets that dark = evil. Similarly we understand that Tolkien's Black Númenóreans are not physically coloured but are the bad guys because they perform black (or dark) arts., black/dark = evil. Why should you limit the full & clearly understood use of language just because you're paranoid about the use of the word black?
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2008
  2. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    yeah I don't deny that the word black is associated with evil, I don't deny that. But giving someone a black uniform is in my book different than giving someone a black skin for example. It's not just because he has black skin and is evil. It all depends on the author and the context. For example the latest King Kong was labeled by the press to be racist as the bad guys were black mindless cannibels who almost acted like monsters. Now I don't judge the film king kong, I don't think Peter Jackson did it with the purpose to label black people as evil. But with Tolkien I'm still skeptical about it for other reasons I already pointed out.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2008
  3. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    I'd certainly agree if black skin was used as the determiing measure of 'evil'. Although in some situations it's entirely possible that all the bad guys happen to be one ethnicity ~ for example a gangland or war drama. It would be silly, for example, in the film Zulu (a dramatical interpretation of the Battle of Rorke Drift) if racial quotas had been imposed when representing the gallant defense by the small British garrison against the Zulu horde. From a British perspective we were the good guys, they were the bad. From a Zulu perspective the 'bad' tag is reversed.

    As for Tolkien as I said earlier;

    Just as a footnote to the above ~ even hobbits varied in colour. The biggest group were the Harfoots... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harfoot
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2008
  4. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    It's not just a matter of Black SKin being a representation of evil for Urak-Hai. I personally see it as a matter of "efficiency". Evil traditionally goes about doing it's business at night time. What better way to catch your enemy unawares than if you were to easily blend into the blackness of the night. The dark skin certainly helps, I personally know this, because when I went on a Night Expedition at my time in the ATC (Air Training Corps) where we against other teams, my naturally darker skin in comparison to my "white" friends hid me a lot more easily. It was harder to spot me, and therefore made me "more efficient".

    You believe I am taking the symbolism to literally, but so do I believe you are reading into the colour of the Urak-hai's skin too literally.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2008
  5. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Well that's true met, but I don't know if the Dark Skin was so important for the Uruk Hai, cause one of the diffences between the Uruk Hai and the Orcs is that they could travel by daylight, so I don't think that Tolkien gave them dark skin because of efficiency.
     
  6. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    I'm just giving an analysis on a reason that have given dark skin.

    I mean, most people associate the colour black with Evil, why not give an enemy black skin. They are not humans, and we're applying too much real world way of thinking to a fantasy book. In the same way that "black clouds and thunder" appear in books when evil approaches so it is the simple depicition that the evil enemy has black skin. It's not an intentional accusation at Black people, that they are evil. It's just a simple train of thought that has come under scrutiny by people who have looked too deep into it and are finding things that are not there.
     
  7. Crusader

    Crusader Disturber of the Peace

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    Well then maybe its excess melanin (skin pigment) to block out the damaging sunlight?
     
  8. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    No I don't think he was pretty much thinking of that, however I don't say that he gave the Uruk-Hai black skin with the sole purpose because they are black. As I said I'm still skeptical. And yeah it's not about the dark skin only that I think not that great of Tolkien. You have to look at the overall look of all the evil guys in Lotr. Either they are ugly, stupid, etc... Anyway there's always a way to downside them if I explain myself correctly. I mean in SW for example you had as well good looking, bad looking evil guys, you had evil guys of different races, and most were pretty and highly intelligent.
     
  9. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    To another orc that may epitomise the perfect mate :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2008
  10. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    You're looking at the pleb level bad guys. Not all the "bad guys" are ugly and stupid. Although stupidity is a good reason that most people do evil things.

    The ugliness is just another representation of corruption. To turn that which is beautiful into something ugly is a common thing we see evil do.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2008
  11. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Not really... I mean like I said you got to look at the whole thing. Look at voldemort, not the most handsome guy, but he was good looking once. The Uruk hai were always ugly lol. They are born that way. But yes Voldemort and his small army, they are all white. It's not racist imo cause its after all just a small group. And they are not ugly. But not that good looking either lol. There are smart as well as less smart people in his little band. So it's a bit exagerated to give the evil ones only bad features either in character or appearance.
     
  12. Meteorain

    Meteorain Magical & Mystical

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    I'm not saying the Urak-hai were not always ugly. I'm saying that not all the bad guys in Middle-Earth (not LotR exclusively) are ugly.

    You've also got to think of the time when the books were written. Writing has progressed and we now don't have to show ugly things as being evil, that's just the way it was then.
     
  13. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    It doesn't surprise me that a 'devil-corpse' wouldn't be a beaut
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2008
  14. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Well I wouldn't show them as beautiful either lol, that would look almost like a femine Orc if you made them look more pretty lol
     
  15. Padmé

    Padmé Mrs Cascador

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    *rubs eyes* By Satan's balls is this still going on? lol
     
  16. azuren82

    azuren82 Berserk got banned...

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    It seems so. Guess Anakin is enjoying debating with met and ell lol! :D
     
  17. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    meh, it's getting to a boring stage... We should get some more variety concerning writers
     
  18. Padmé

    Padmé Mrs Cascador

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    As I keep saying to him, it's like talking to a brick wall lol Except, at least the wall looks nice lol :D j/k
     
  19. ~Elladan~

    ~Elladan~ A Elbereth Gilthoniel

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    Pah... give me an orc any day :p

    Let's dissect a different author(ess) as we're just going over old ground with Tolkien
     
  20. Cascador

    Cascador Who's Anakin?

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    Good idea, Elladan... Maybe C.S. Lewis would be a good choice. He was accused of racism and sexism. My knowledge about him is not that great, but I do know a few points that sounds like sexism... Don't know about racism though.